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Post by frankie on Jul 23, 2021 22:28:00 GMT -7
This isn’t going to be helpful in the sense that there is an answer for your problem… but… the reason why a lot of amps don’t have loops is that much of the character of the amps distortion comes from driving the power section (which includes the phase inverter). Unless the amp was designed to be primarily preamp gain into a clean power amp (like a high gain amp), a loop will always impart some sort of sound/character on the signal.
Since the EMS was design to get tones of old Marshall’s that didn’t have loops, this is why it doesn’t have one. Some of that character comes from the power section. A loop would limit that and it would not come out to how you would imagine it sounding. Hence you never see Marshall reissue a superlead/Plexi or 800 with a loop. The later channel switching 800s with the loop sound nothing like the single channel 800s. Because you can’t really just insert a loop in the single channel 800 and expect the results you want. The power section is part of the distortion/character of the amp.
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Post by adam on Jul 24, 2021 4:53:12 GMT -7
Well, doesn’t assist those of us who are attempting to find a way to solve some “problems” in our own rig situations. Yes, sorry about that. This probably won't help either, but some of my journey with that stuff. 1. Had a H&K Triamp (darn expensive, and thought it was the last amp I'd ever need). Used the effect loop with a TC G-Major rack unit, one side returned to the Triamp and one side to the effect return on a Fender Blues Deville. That worked very well except the even channels (2-4-6) had a different send level or something and when switching to those, the volume of the deville would drop considerably. Ended up using only 3 channels of that amp. Spoke to someone at HK about it and they basically said you need another triamp and switch channels along with amp 1 to make it work (like say Alex Lifeson). Not a very cost effective solution, moved on. 2. Had borrowed a plexi modded by Scott Splawn for a while and it was the bomb (volume wise too, but another story). Couldn't find one of those, got a Splawn Quickrod. Not the same, but had a cool sound. Anyway, anything in the effect loop just degraded the amp sound enough that it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Went to a wet-dry-wet rig with that. Mic on cab to little Motu interface (mic pre and 8 channel mixer). Mic send (line) on that to the TC, back to a couple DIs for FOH, then the mixer, and out of that to 2 powered pa type monitors. That sounded unreal, larger than life. That idea came from what Larry Carlton was doing live. Since #2, a delay in a loop just doesn't cut it for me and not worth the trouble and I'd just rather carefully use a delay in front of the amp, ala Page or EJ or whomever. That has a couple benefits too, like automatic ducking and the color of the delay changing because of the gain change to the amp, less cables, less potential problems and headaches. So, and a complete guess, but maybe Doc tried a loop when doing the R&D on the amp, didn't like what it was doing, and decided to forgo it because at it's heart, the inspirations for the amp didn't have loops either. Back to #2 for a thought... that might seem like a lot. But, I was also playing synth and samples with one of those boss controllers that look like Taurus pedals into a Roland rack synth/sampler (rush tribute), and I needed to hear and monitor that too. That was already in that same mixer/PA system with DIs (was a 4 channel di). Everything was in one rack and the sound guys could easily tap the 4 DI's. So really the guitar effect part of that equation was just adding a mic and 5' mic cable. I guess I might add there were 2 midi controllers for patch changes out front too (one for synth patches and one for gtr effects) which was kind of a hassle. Guess I could also add the Splawn had 2 channels and the clean channel was pretty horrible so I never used that. It was kind of like all that stuff was added marketing features to help sell an amp, but from a practicality standpoint, I'd rather have a cheaper amp without the "features" that were pretty useless.
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Post by doctorice on Jul 24, 2021 7:35:37 GMT -7
An (expensive) potential thing to try is a box like the Fryette Power Station or Bad Cat Unleash. Both combine attenuation or additional amplification -- probably of less interest with an EMS -- and have effects loops. I have an old Unleash lying around, but I haven't really tried it as a loop add on, so no opinion on tone or viability.
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Post by adam on Jul 24, 2021 8:19:17 GMT -7
An (expensive) potential thing to try is a box like the Fryette Power Station or Bad Cat Unleash. Both combine attenuation or additional amplification -- probably of less interest with an EMS -- and have effects loops. I have an old Unleash lying around, but I haven't really tried it as a loop add on, so no opinion on tone or viability. I forgot about that, and that’s probably the ultimate solution.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jul 27, 2021 7:05:04 GMT -7
This isn’t going to be helpful in the sense that there is an answer for your problem… but… the reason why a lot of amps don’t have loops is that much of the character of the amps distortion comes from driving the power section (which includes the phase inverter). Unless the amp was designed to be primarily preamp gain into a clean power amp (like a high gain amp), a loop will always impart some sort of sound/character on the signal. Since the EMS was design to get tones of old Marshall’s that didn’t have loops, this is why it doesn’t have one. Some of that character comes from the power section. A loop would limit that and it would not come out to how you would imagine it sounding. Hence you never see Marshall reissue a superlead/Plexi or 800 with a loop. The later channel switching 800s with the loop sound nothing like the single channel 800s. Because you can’t really just insert a loop in the single channel 800 and expect the results you want. The power section is part of the distortion/character of the amp. I totally get that and I guess my point was that I've come to terms with the fact that this amp works best without a loop of any kind. In fact, I think (because I've now, with OCD like persistence - tested all of my amps loops) that any loop in ANY amp is going to have an effect on the amps tone. That leaves you with 2 options - use the loop and adjust the amp settings accordingly (but STILL it will have the effect of having a loop active) OR learn to set your pedals in a fashion out front that you can live with (i.e., multiple delay settings/pedals for changes in amp settings). I guess another possibility is to really lean into using that volume knob on the guitar - but this ALSO has an effect on the input signal in front of everything else - causing a "chain reaction" of sorts. In the end I've come to the conclusion that I am NOT going to use the loops on any of my amps. And really - the EMS sounds SOOOOO much better when the loop is taken out of the circuit - so that's the route I'm going.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jul 27, 2021 7:09:02 GMT -7
Well, doesn’t assist those of us who are attempting to find a way to solve some “problems” in our own rig situations. 2. Had borrowed a plexi modded by Scott Splawn for a while and it was the bomb (volume wise too, but another story). Couldn't find one of those, got a Splawn Quickrod. Not the same, but had a cool sound. Anyway, anything in the effect loop just degraded the amp sound enough that it wasn't worth the tradeoff. Since #2, a delay in a loop just doesn't cut it for me and not worth the trouble and I'd just rather carefully use a delay in front of the amp So, and a complete guess, but maybe Doc tried a loop when doing the R&D on the amp, didn't like what it was doing, and decided to forgo it because at it's heart, the inspirations for the amp didn't have loops either. Yeah - I've come to the same conclusion! Especially what you state in number 2 above: " anything in the effect loop just degraded the amp sound enough that it wasn't worth the tradeoff." I agree 100%! Also - I think if a loop in the EMS was a great idea - Doc would have already figured that out. There's a reason he's called a "Doctor"!
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Post by frankie on Jul 27, 2021 13:03:27 GMT -7
This isn’t going to be helpful in the sense that there is an answer for your problem… but… the reason why a lot of amps don’t have loops is that much of the character of the amps distortion comes from driving the power section (which includes the phase inverter). Unless the amp was designed to be primarily preamp gain into a clean power amp (like a high gain amp), a loop will always impart some sort of sound/character on the signal. Since the EMS was design to get tones of old Marshall’s that didn’t have loops, this is why it doesn’t have one. Some of that character comes from the power section. A loop would limit that and it would not come out to how you would imagine it sounding. Hence you never see Marshall reissue a superlead/Plexi or 800 with a loop. The later channel switching 800s with the loop sound nothing like the single channel 800s. Because you can’t really just insert a loop in the single channel 800 and expect the results you want. The power section is part of the distortion/character of the amp. I totally get that and I guess my point was that I've come to terms with the fact that this amp works best without a loop of any kind. In fact, I think (because I've now, with OCD like persistence - tested all of my amps loops) that any loop in ANY amp is going to have an effect on the amps tone. That leaves you with 2 options - use the loop and adjust the amp settings accordingly (but STILL it will have the effect of having a loop active) OR learn to set your pedals in a fashion out front that you can live with (i.e., multiple delay settings/pedals for changes in amp settings). I guess another possibility is to really lean into using that volume knob on the guitar - but this ALSO has an effect on the input signal in front of everything else - causing a "chain reaction" of sorts. In the end I've come to the conclusion that I am NOT going to use the loops on any of my amps. And really - the EMS sounds SOOOOO much better when the loop is taken out of the circuit - so that's the route I'm going. That's only partially true. Some amps are difficult to integrate a loop, as they weren't designed to have FX signal interjected in the middle of the audio path, and others integrate seamlessly if the circuit is designed with the loop in mind to begin with. For example, the CAZ was designed from the ground up with a loop, and it's a very seamless integration. The "tone suck" issue arises with loops is the cable run, and pedals. Since there is no standardize impedance in/out in FX pedals, you can often have a wildly different tone with certain pedals in the loop. Add on top of this cheaper A/DA conversion chips in some digital FX (Source Audio, Line 6) and it's often the pedals that can cause tone changes/degradation. As for the CAZ loop, out of all the loops ever used in an Dr. Z amp, this one is truly transparent if you are using high quality buffered FX. For example, we did some sampling in the studio utilizing the Strymon trifecta of the Big Sky, Mobius, and Timeline all in the loop, and when the mic was in front of the amp, we could simply not hear a difference between the pedals inserted in the loop or out of the loop in a blind test. It's all about quality devices, quality cables for your runs, and a circuit that is built with the loop in mind, not with a loop inserted after the fact.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jul 27, 2021 15:48:03 GMT -7
I totally get that and I guess my point was that I've come to terms with the fact that this amp works best without a loop of any kind. In fact, I think (because I've now, with OCD like persistence - tested all of my amps loops) that any loop in ANY amp is going to have an effect on the amps tone. That leaves you with 2 options - use the loop and adjust the amp settings accordingly (but STILL it will have the effect of having a loop active) OR learn to set your pedals in a fashion out front that you can live with (i.e., multiple delay settings/pedals for changes in amp settings). I guess another possibility is to really lean into using that volume knob on the guitar - but this ALSO has an effect on the input signal in front of everything else - causing a "chain reaction" of sorts. In the end I've come to the conclusion that I am NOT going to use the loops on any of my amps. And really - the EMS sounds SOOOOO much better when the loop is taken out of the circuit - so that's the route I'm going. That's only partially true. Some amps are difficult to integrate a loop, as they weren't designed to have FX signal interjected in the middle of the audio path, and others integrate seamlessly if the circuit is designed with the loop in mind to begin with. For example, the CAZ was designed from the ground up with a loop, and it's a very seamless integration. The "tone suck" issue arises with loops is the cable run, and pedals. Since there is no standardize impedance in/out in FX pedals, you can often have a wildly different tone with certain pedals in the loop. Add on top of this cheaper A/DA conversion chips in some digital FX (Source Audio, Line 6) and it's often the pedals that can cause tone changes/degradation. As for the CAZ loop, out of all the loops ever used in an Dr. Z amp, this one is truly transparent if you are using high quality buffered FX. For example, we did some sampling in the studio utilizing the Strymon trifecta of the Big Sky, Mobius, and Timeline all in the loop, and when the mic was in front of the amp, we could simply not hear a difference between the pedals inserted in the loop or out of the loop in a blind test. It's all about quality devices, quality cables for your runs, and a circuit that is built with the loop in mind, not with a loop inserted after the fact. You’re probably right on the money with this. I’m going to go test it out on my amps by connecting a short high quality patch cable between the input and output (send & return) of the loops and see which of my amps is affected and by how much.
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Post by adam on Jul 27, 2021 15:49:14 GMT -7
In the end I've come to the conclusion that I am NOT going to use the loops on any of my amps. And really - the EMS sounds SOOOOO much better when the loop is taken out of the circuit - so that's the route I'm going. I arrived at that too. I still haven't tried the loop on my maz18 that I've had for a few years now. I tried the loop on the caz for fun and couldn't hear any difference, but I still don't want to use it. Mr. Paisley and the Z-wreck, no loop. You could go on and on about that. However... There's a recent Andy Timmons rig rundown on the D'addario YT site which is interesting. Using 2 of the boogie lone stars on the clean channel, in the loop of amp one hitting the strymon timeline and then verb back to stereo return on those amps which used to feed 2 4x12's and he later downsized to 2 2x12's on the tour he did with Uli. He doesn't change them and basically leaves them on all the time and it's pretty glorious. Vai used to do that with some modded Marshalls back in the DLR era of his career too. Probably lots of people. What was most interesting though was the he basically smashes the input of the clean channel with everything from his clean sound (a compressor with low compression and high output), a blues driver while rolling down the guitar volume, and heavy distorted with a JHS angry Charlie or AT pedal. It sounds fantastic, but that was really from experimentation, like if you just plugged the guitar into the amp, it probably sounds like crap. Worth a watch I think because most people would never approach it like that. I caught him live a couple times. Once with Uli and he sounded unreal, and another time at SW gearfest on the jam night. He sounded fantastic in each, but in the latter, you could see him kind of nervously walking around when other players were up there like Eric Johnson and other greats, and when he got up there, it was like the Tasmanian devil was unleashed or something. Lastly, those tones are really in his head and hands.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jan 9, 2022 12:36:37 GMT -7
Alright - time for a follow up, since there have been so many questions. There is something in the way the gain works on this amp that makes using the loop, well, difficult at best. The loop level does not stay consitent as you change the gain levels on the amp OR with your guitars volume knob. The cleaner you have the amp, the more it behaves like a traditional loop. But who the hell buys this amp to play it clean? NOT ME! The short version - I regret that this mod didn't work better. I don't regret that there is a switch on the back which removes it completely from the circuit. SO, I wouldn't recommend it. Run your effects in FRONT of this amp and season to taste with your personal highest usable gain level. Then just accept that would have falloff when you roll down the volume on your guitar. I can do that! Anyone want to trade for a NOVA? There should be a trim pot inside that will adjust the gain level. With amp with more gain the trim level should be set lower as it controls the signal driving the loop. So it sounds as if the tech may have set the loop level and less than full clip, or perhaps it has never been adjusted at all. Using the trim inside the amp can adjust for the amount of gain in the EMS and you may be able to find a healthy balance. Do you ever feel like you’re to blame yourself for your own stupidness? Yeah. This is me. Following up TWO years later on the advice to mess around with the trim pot inside the head. Well, I finally got a chance to do just that. It took a lot of putzing around, and a lot of trial and error (man that trim pot is incredibly sensitive with just tiny tiny tiny increments of turning!). I actually finally got the loop set to unity gain with the amp, and believe it or not, that actually resolved all the other issues I had with the loop! I’m incredibly happy with it now. Although my rig has shrunk (by that I mean I don’t use nearly as many pedals as I used to) I run an analog delay in the loop all the time now and it sounds fantastic! And I don’t have to worry about where I have the gain set on the amp anymore. Man! Did that ever make my life a whole lot easier. My advice to anybody who is thinking about putting a loop inside their EMS, just know that you’re going to have to fiddle with that trim pot to get it to work with your own particular amp. Once you put in that effort though, even if it takes you two years to do it, it will be well worth it!
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Post by madhermit on Jan 9, 2022 13:08:16 GMT -7
There should be a trim pot inside that will adjust the gain level. With amp with more gain the trim level should be set lower as it controls the signal driving the loop. So it sounds as if the tech may have set the loop level and less than full clip, or perhaps it has never been adjusted at all. Using the trim inside the amp can adjust for the amount of gain in the EMS and you may be able to find a healthy balance. Do you ever feel like you’re to blame yourself for your own stupidness? Yeah. This is me. Following up TWO years later on the advice to mess around with the trim pot inside the head. Well, I finally got a chance to do just that. It took a lot of putzing around, and a lot of trial and error (man that trim part is incredibly sensitive with just tiny tiny tiny increments of turning!). I actually finally got the loop set to unity gain with the amp, and believe it or not, that actually resolved all the other issues I had with the loop! I’m incredibly happy with it now. Although my rig has shrunk (by that I mean I don’t use nearly as many pedals as I used to) I run an analog delay in the loop all the time now and it sounds fantastic! And I don’t have to worry about where I have the gain set on the amp anymore. Man! Did that ever make my life a whole lot easier. My advice to anybody who is thinking about putting a loop inside their EMS, just know that you’re going to have to fiddle with that trim pot to get it to work with your own particular amp. Once you put in that effort though, even if it takes you two years to do it, it will be well worth it! Any pictures of the install? I may go for this now that someone has it working. Next thing I want to know is does the Legendary Tones Hot Mod V2 gain boost work in an EMS.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jun 8, 2022 7:20:17 GMT -7
All right, back again after some more testing. I’m trying everything I can to make this metro loop work!
I’ve narrowed down the issue to analog delay pedals (Jam Pedals Delay Llama Extreme and Boss Waza DM2). What do I mean? Any time I plug an analog delay pedal into the loop, whether it is buffered or true bypass (trails on and off), I lose some of the top end out of my signal. When I put in anything that is all digital, such as a Strymon Flint, I do not lose any top end signal. Can anybody explain to me what is happening? Am I just destined to not be able to use an analog delay pedal in the metro effects loop? I can live with that if that is the answer. There are plenty of delay pedals out there simulating an analog delay that are digital. I suppose I may just have to get one of those.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
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Post by madhermit on Jun 9, 2022 14:12:03 GMT -7
That is odd. I wonder what the technical reason might be.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jun 10, 2022 8:38:47 GMT -7
That is odd. I wonder what the technical reason might be. Me too! I was hoping one of the smart people here could tell me.
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