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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 13:32:52 GMT -7
Hello everybody!
First off, this is my first post on Z-talk and, in fact, my first forum post anywhere. I've watched them for years (learned a lot!) but have never joined one until now. It seems that I could use some advice and since I'm a proud, new Z owner I figured I'd sign up. I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post this or if it's already been covered somewhere else.
I recently bought a 2014 Z Wreck Head and 2x12 Blue and Gold cabinet (with half power switch, wired for speed) and it arrived last week, shipped through UPS. It's an amazing piece of gear and is the nicest amp I've ever owned. However, I've noticed that I'm not getting anywhere the amount of overdrive that I should be getting from it. I've listened to almost all the videos on the first three or four pages on YouTube and read so many articles about how it gets a little dirty around noon (or so) and gets pretty saturated as you go on up. That's not the experience I'm having with mine at all. At noon with my Strat and Tele it is only slightly gritty, and that's when pushed hard. I get a little breakup from my PRS but it's slightly harsh and not sweet like so many of the videos. By 3:00 I'm starting to get the amount of overdrive that it seems most other people are getting at noon or so and then at full volume it is only slightly more dirty. I don't feel that I'm getting the amount of sustain or feedback at any level either. The amp still feels pretty good for the most part but it sounds like it's missing that sparkle and overdrive that I read so much about. This might just be a perception thing, but it also doesn't quite seem like it's as loud as it should be. I had it cranked up to 3:00 on full power and it wasn't painful. It wasn't by any means quiet but I didn't feel like it was unbearable at all.
I'm playing a Danocaster Double Cut with Rocketfire 60s pickups, a stock 2007 Nocaster, and a stock PRS Studio with the 57/08 humbucker and have been running straight from the guitar to the amp with a George L's cable (I've also tested a few other cables). I've tried the amp with and without attenuation (Brake Lite). It is all original and has newer tubes, the ones Dr. Z recommends. It was very well packed but I know tubes can be sensitive at times so I'm hoping it's just a tube issue.
I've owned several tube amps in the past and still own a 66 SR but my technical knowledge of them is still somewhat limited. I searched the thread for Z Wreck troubleshooting but I felt like this is sort of a unique situation. I've been working on checking the tubes over but I was hoping somebody could point me in the right direction. Does this even sound like it could be tube related, or something else?
Thanks to everybody in advance!
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Post by "Z" Steve on Oct 25, 2018 13:50:34 GMT -7
Welcome to the forum!
I do not own a Z Wreck, but from what you are saying it sounds like a tube issue. Did the seller say anything about how old the tubes were in the amp? I would start from there as soon as possible, just to cover yourself in case there is something else wrong that wasn't disclosed by the seller. I hate to have to think that way, but it happens. I'm know others will chime in as well with their thoughts.
Again, welcome!
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 14:01:44 GMT -7
Hello! Thank you for the welcome and the advice. The owner said the tubes were about a year old and in good shape. I have had a good bit of communication with the seller so I do trust him, but I will take your advice and start with the tubes first thing.
My 66 was shipped to me from a different seller and it arrived with some damaged tubes. The seller had a good reputation, on Reverb and on forums, but I've had a lot of trouble with UPS and FedEx here lately.
It helps a lot to know that at least it could be a tube issue. If it didn't sound tube-related at all then it starts to get out of my comfort zone.
Thanks again!
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Post by Rockerfeller on Oct 25, 2018 14:09:41 GMT -7
Most people who are trying to troubleshoot the Z wreck are trying to figure out how they can buy one! 😁
But as a Z Wreck owner myself, I can tell you that this doesn't sound right. I play teles and with the volume at 11 I get a great Brad Paisley type of tone.
Push it past 2 and its screaming and oozing amazing crunch.
I can make it do what you're saying it's doing when the volume is cranked up,IF I've rolled my volume down on my Guitar. It doesn't sound like you're doing that.
So I can't help you figure out what it is, I can only say that I agree with you that it doesn't sound right.
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Post by Maddog on Oct 25, 2018 14:17:52 GMT -7
The owner said the tubes were about a year old and in good shape. Bingo.... I've personally "wrecked" many el84-type tubes in less than a year....I think that line says it all...I would start with a BRAND NEW matched set, and I'll bet you'll smile!!!
Especially if you get NOS Russian 6P14P-EV tubes....Sound really great in the Wreck!
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 14:28:05 GMT -7
Haha, it's been on my list for about six years now. Reading the forums on here only fueled that fire!
I just tried to play it at 11 with my Tele and it's pretty much all clean except for when it's hit pretty hard. Even then it's slight. What you describe (Rockerfeller) is exactly the type of tone I was expecting when I turned mine on, but it's not there yet. I check my guitar volume almost every time I play it because that's exactly how it sounds - just like the volume is rolled back a bit. It's a decent clean done like that, but not a Wreck tone.
Thank you for the response! Just confirming that I wasn't expecting too much from it helps a lot.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 14:34:36 GMT -7
Maddog, Thank you! I'll try that right now. I have the link to The Tube Store for the tubes Dr. Z recommends for it, so I will order them and get back with an update when they come in and I swap out the Wreck's old "wrecked" tubes. I was considering doing that anyway because it never hurts to have several spares. This is the sort of experience I was hoping to find here and, again, I really appreciate all the answers!
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Post by Maddog on Oct 25, 2018 14:41:52 GMT -7
Maddog, Thank you! I'll try that right now. I have the link to The Tube Store for the tubes Dr. Z recommends for it, so I will order them and get back with an update when they come in and I swap out the Wreck's old "wrecked" tubes. I was considering doing that anyway because it never hurts to have several spares. This is the sort of experience I was hoping to find here and, again, I really appreciate all the answers! Keep us posted, and welcome to the forum....lots of nice folks here....
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Post by Rockerfeller on Oct 25, 2018 14:46:04 GMT -7
The only thing I would say about those wreck tubes is they are rated for like five 5,000 hours. They're pretty heavy duty.
So even though they are el84s they should last a lot longer than your typical JJ's.
Maybe a preamp tube?
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Post by mudman on Oct 25, 2018 14:51:59 GMT -7
I had that happen with a preamp tube in an amp head once. Still worked but was neutered and quiet. Start at v1 replacing tubes one by one (matched set at the power tubes of course) until you find the slouch.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 14:56:40 GMT -7
That's very good to know, Rockerfeller. I was wondering about ordering the whole set or just ordering a few of them. I don't mind having a backup set either way but if I can save on shipping and have them here then I'd just get the whole set. I'll start with the preamp tubes and change those out first and then go down the line with them. Maybe it's just one and I can have a mostly full complete backup set.
Thanks for the welcome, Maddog! I've noticed the nice folks here through the years. It's why I asked you all first!
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 25, 2018 15:01:01 GMT -7
Mudman,
That sounds like my situation. The overdrive is lacking but it just seems like it should be louder. I can play it at night with not attenuation at around 9:00 or 10:00 and not bother anybody in the house. It gets louder after that, but it's approaching bedroom levels below 9:00.
I'll start changing them that way and see if I can find the trouble.
Thanks!
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Post by "Z" Steve on Oct 25, 2018 15:23:06 GMT -7
While you are going through you tubes it is also a good idea to spray a little DeOxit on the pins and/or the sockets to remove any oxidation. Replace the preamp tubes one at a time to help rule out the culprit if it is a preamp tube. That is also a good idea re having an extra set of tubes (for all your amps)!
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Post by dcarver on Oct 25, 2018 22:18:59 GMT -7
Hi wreckandroll. Welcome to the forum. You might want to consider this : Not all NOS Russian EL84 / 6p14p tubes are the same. Forum member Perry R. is the best source for the genuine NOS 6p14p power tubes Dr. Z puts in at the factory. Here's a link to his Reverb store: reverb.com/item/3404159-nos-russian-6n14n-el84-power-tubes-quad-for-your-dr-z-trainwreck-1980-sI just took a look at the Tube Store's site. The tube they list as Z Wreck replacement is a 7189. It might work fine in a Wreck, but it doesn't look the same as the NOS Russian 6p14p Doc puts in his amps. Plus, the real deal from Perry is 10 bucks a tube cheaper. Good luck. Hope you get your Wreck sorted out.
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Post by zpilot on Oct 26, 2018 5:54:18 GMT -7
The 7189's that I got a couple of years ago from The Tube Store were definitely not the same as the ones Perry sells. They were the Preferred Series 7189.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Oct 26, 2018 6:25:15 GMT -7
As a fellow Wreck owner, I wholeheartedly recommend Perryr here on the forum for the 6p14p tubes. Doc puts the Tung Sol RI tubes in the preamp tube spots. The tubes are the heart of any amp, get the good ones. I'm pretty sure Perryr supplies the OEM output tubes for Doc.
And welcome to the best forum on the net. Tons of knowledge and good hearted people here.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 26, 2018 6:57:44 GMT -7
Hello!
Thank you for the head's up! I will definitely check out those tubes. Maybe the link I saw for those from The Tube Store was older or they were just supposed to be close. Either way, that's great info. I'll probably just get those four tubes from Perryr for now and see if that fixes it first.
Does anybody know a good place to get the rest of the tubes to have a backup set? I don't mind spending a little more to do it right.
I'll also order some DeOxit to spray on my pins to clean them up. Thanks for that advice! I have had tube amps off and on for a while but regrettably have never taken the time to dig in and learn how to properly maintain them myself.
Thanks again for the replies and for the warm welcome! I've wanted a Z for years and the great forum that goes along with it sure is a big bonus!
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Post by bryan0418 on Oct 26, 2018 7:14:34 GMT -7
Hello! Thank you for the head's up! I will definitely check out those tubes. Maybe the link I saw for those from The Tube Store was older or they were just supposed to be close. Either way, that's great info. I'll probably just get those four tubes from Perryr for now and see if that fixes it first. Does anybody know a good place to get the rest of the tubes to have a backup set? I don't mind spending a little more to do it right. I'll also order some DeOxit to spray on my pins to clean them up. Thanks for that advice! I have had tube amps off and on for a while but regrettably have never taken the time to dig in and learn how to properly maintain them myself. Thanks again for the replies and for the warm welcome! I've wanted a Z for years and the great forum that goes along with it sure is a big bonus! You can get the Tung Sol 12AX7's and the Sovtek 5AR4 tubes at The Tube Store or Doug's Tubes. Those are current production tubes so any reputable dealer will have them. I agree with the posts above for output tubes. Perry sells the 6N14N tubes and he is great to deal with. Enjoy your Z Wreck.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 26, 2018 7:58:17 GMT -7
I think I'll go ahead and order the 12AX7's and 5AR4 now, too, then. Does it matter if the 12AX7's are matched and balanced in the Wreck? I don't mind spending it, but if I don't need to then I won't.
Thank you all again!
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Post by mudman on Oct 26, 2018 8:34:51 GMT -7
I think I'll go ahead and order the 12AX7's and 5AR4 now, too, then. Does it matter if the 12AX7's are matched and balanced in the Wreck? I don't mind spending it, but if I don't need to then I won't. Thank you all again! No, don’t need to match 12ax7s
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Post by bryan0418 on Oct 26, 2018 9:14:17 GMT -7
I think I'll go ahead and order the 12AX7's and 5AR4 now, too, then. Does it matter if the 12AX7's are matched and balanced in the Wreck? I don't mind spending it, but if I don't need to then I won't. Thank you all again! Only the phase inverter tube which is closest to the output tubes needs to be balanced. Usually is a couple bucks more for that tube.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 26, 2018 12:21:32 GMT -7
Oh, great. Thanks again. I am long overdue for learning this stuff.
I'll order the other tubes right now and will give an update when they come in.
Thanks!
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Post by mudman on Oct 26, 2018 12:35:08 GMT -7
I think I'll go ahead and order the 12AX7's and 5AR4 now, too, then. Does it matter if the 12AX7's are matched and balanced in the Wreck? I don't mind spending it, but if I don't need to then I won't. Thank you all again! Only the phase inverter tube which is closest to the output tubes needs to be balanced. Usually is a couple bucks more for that tube. I actually talked to Don at Dr. Z repairs. He said the shop doesn’t worry about the PI being balanced.
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Post by dcarver on Oct 26, 2018 13:02:50 GMT -7
Hey wrecknroll, here's another tip for ya. Up at the top of the page right under the Z-Talk header there is a link labeled Z Tube. It takes you to Dr. Z's YouTube page, where he's got A TON of good info. Well worth checking out.
Here's the Doc's video on the 6p14p. (Note: 6p14p and 6n14n are used interchangeably. The labeling on the tube looks like an "n". It's actually the symbol for "p" in the Russian alphabet.)
Here's a good video on troubleshooting:
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Post by dcarver on Oct 26, 2018 14:27:44 GMT -7
The Wreck should sound awesome ... like really awesome.
You have one of the best amps ever made. Hopefully it's just a tube issue. But if tubes don't solve the problem, you might consider sending it back to the mother ship.
Monster player Jason Hobbs used to post on the forum quite often.
Here's his demo of a cranked Wreck for reference.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 26, 2018 19:21:28 GMT -7
Hello!
Wow, thanks for that info! I will check out Dr. Z’s page tonight for a while. My wife and I have two young children so we don’t go out on Fridays like we used to!
I used to watch Jason’s videos back when I first found out about the Wreck and they (and of course BP’s video!) were some of the main reasons that it became a bucket list type amp. I went back over a lot of his videos this week to compare and that was when I knew I had an issue. His Wreck sounds better than anything else I’ve ever owned up to this point! I don’t think I’ve watched the one you posted though.
I got my original question answered (hopefully it’s a tube issue) and have learned so much more in the process. Thanks again!
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Post by dcarver on Oct 26, 2018 22:56:54 GMT -7
You're welcome. Be sure to check out Doc's Russian tube video. Each tube has an actual flying saucer inside. Saucer mojo ... fascinating stuff.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 29, 2018 17:23:16 GMT -7
Hello everybody,
My tubes came in the mail today. I went through them one at a time and changed the whole set after finding out that none of them were solving the issue. Now I am running a whole brand new set of tubes and still have pristine cleans at 12 o’clock and have to push it to well past that for any real overdrive. I guess my next step will be to email the Dr. and see what they can tell me. This has made for an extremely frustrating week, but I just wanted to update everybody.
Thanks to everybody for the advice. I will update whenever I can find something out.
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Post by bryan0418 on Oct 29, 2018 17:45:19 GMT -7
Could it be there is an issue with your guitar cable? Or maybe your guitar wiring? Perhaps the input signal isn't hot enough? Just a thought. You tried everything else it sounds.
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Post by wreckandroll on Oct 29, 2018 17:53:27 GMT -7
Unfortunately, I’ve tried that. I tried three different cables and even a PRS with a humbucker in it and it was still the same result, with just slightly more breakup. I tried adjusting the height of my pickups (just to see) and a few other things and nothing seem to make any difference.
I really wish it were that simple, or maybe there something else that I’m missing. I really have no idea what it could be now, other than something internal.
I appreciate your advice, and would be thrilled if it would have been something like that. I had high hopes that it was going to be a tube issue, but so far it doesn’t seem like that’s the case.
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