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Post by nicholas on Aug 18, 2017 13:18:44 GMT -7
I understand there are some variables here. I'm comparing a Celestion G12M Greenback 25w to a Celestion G12M 20W herritage Greenback.
With the info gathered from the Celestion web site... The voice coil is the same size. The magnet is the same weight. But the speakers sound totally different. The only visual difference is the Heritage Greenie seems to have no doping at all. With the two mounted in a x pattern in a Marshall 1960 cab the 25w version sounds like the equivalent to hitting the old "Dolby loud" button. This is not a subtle difference. I very much prefer the 20w version
I'm curious to know if anyone has any sort of matrix for how different variables influence a speakers sound? Like how can a speaker with the same size voice coil and magnet weight sound so different? What is it that makes them sound different? And how would a smaller voice coil sound different than a larger one if that was the case?
Actual factual information needed
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Post by John on Aug 18, 2017 14:31:12 GMT -7
Just a few things to add to your list:
Dust cover size ribs on the cone Cone material
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Aug 18, 2017 14:41:55 GMT -7
I don't have a reference for you, but there are a number of parameters that are going to affect the frequency response of a speaker. Number of winds on the voice coil, wire gauge used in the voice coil, physical distance from vc windings to magnet gap, rigidity of spider and cone surround. Total mass of the cone structure, Magnet material and how powerfully charged it is when it's first magnetized. This is going to be a cool thread to watch, and having exposed my ignorance I would love to learn more about speakers too.
I'd love to hear Doc's input. We had a great conversation about speakers a couple of years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 15:04:57 GMT -7
Paper! Doc said for a long time nobody really had access to the right paper. That's one of the big reasons he sticks with the manufactures he uses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 16:04:01 GMT -7
Thanks to this forum, I have a newfound love and appreciation for speakers. I always "run what ya brung," but now, I find it fun to experiment with different speakers from time to time. Cheaper than experimenting with different amps!
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Post by John on Aug 18, 2017 16:09:47 GMT -7
Cheaper than experimenting with different amps! That's for sure! (no offense Doc)
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Post by purpletele on Aug 18, 2017 17:09:04 GMT -7
I don't have a reference for you, but there are a number of parameters that are going to affect the frequency response of a speaker. Number of winds on the voice coil, wire gauge used in the voice coil, physical distance from vc windings to magnet gap, rigidity of spider and cone surround. Total mass of the cone structure, Magnet material and how powerfully charged it is when it's first magnetized. This is going to be a cool thread to watch, and having exposed my ignorance I would love to learn more about speakers too. I'd love to hear Doc's input. We had a great conversation about speakers a couple of years ago. Quite impressive Dave! Your description certainly makes sense. Speakers are a little more mysterious than amps but not as interesting.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Aug 18, 2017 17:20:07 GMT -7
Just a few things to add to your list: Dust cover size ribs on the cone Cone material Also:Edge/surround Spider Voice-coil former material etc...Here's a decent article that I just spotted recently; the second & third pages get more into the nitty-gritty parts: www.premierguitar.com/articles/25831-all-about-speakers
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 19, 2017 5:27:40 GMT -7
There are hundreds of variables. I have to hand it to speaker designers - to be able to design a speaker like the Alnico Gold with the goal of making a higher powered Alnico Blue and actually arriving at that goal is an impressive design feat. It demonstrates wide and deep knowledge of those hundreds of variables, and how each contributes to the final outcome.
No less impressive is the manufacturing consistency that allows you to know exactly how your second, third, fourth, even tenth Alnico Gold is going to sound, and respond. They are all identical. That takes some real control in the manufacturing process.
As to the question - what makes them sound different is virtually anything you can measure. Dimensions, weights, strengths, quantities for every aspect of the speaker.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 6:33:55 GMT -7
I'm still baffled (pun intended) how essentially a small motor and a paper cone are able to reproduce the amazing, articulate sounds they do. I know the technology is 100 years old, but I still think it is amazing.
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Post by Lefty on Aug 19, 2017 7:24:27 GMT -7
Voodoo.
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Post by Hohn on Sept 14, 2017 7:09:01 GMT -7
Magnetic flux and windings and such don't have a huge affect on tone, but rather on feel.
By far the biggest influence on speaker tone is the cone-- the material, the treatment, all that.
Compare a vintage greenback with Pulsonic cones to the Kurt-Mueller cones and you'll hear the difference even though all else is literally equal-- no other specs changed. This is with doping and all else the same, too.
Moreover, cones have a lot of variation in them. Slight changes in paper density or thickness/stiffness can have audible impact on the tone.
However--
I think it is a mistake to discuss speaker tone without specifying the cabinet. The exact same speakers in different cabs (NOT different configs like 1x12 or 2x12, but just a different cab) will sound different.
When I heard the sound difference between a 1960A and an Orange 4x12 cabinet that had the EXACT SAME drivers swapped between them, I was gobsmacked. I had no idea that cabinet mattered so much. Yet there it was.
So it's one thing to discuss changes in speaker tone given a particular cab. But it's very clear to me now that unless you are comparing the the speaker in identical cabinets, you really cannot have an accurate comparison of the speaker tone.
It's like comparing the sound of guitar pickups without specifying the guitar or amp.
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Post by Hohn on Oct 23, 2017 5:14:57 GMT -7
Just a few things to add to your list: Dust cover size ribs on the cone Cone material And many more. Not just ribs, how how deep are they? How far apart? What is the angle of each rib relative to the cone surface? Material is a huge issue. How stiff is it? What is it's density? What is the inherent damping curve-- i.e. impulse response. Shoot, even within ORIGINAL greenbacks, they vary a great deal in tone, depending on whether you get Pulsonic cones, Kurt Mueller cones, RICs, etc etc. That "greenback sound" is not one sound, it is a family of sounds with thousands of variants. And that's just the speakers themselves! The cab they are used in will radically change the tone, too. www.bygonetones.com/celestion-cones.html
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Post by Hohn on Oct 23, 2017 5:16:03 GMT -7
Thanks to this forum, I have a newfound love and appreciation for speakers. I always "run what ya brung," but now, I find it fun to experiment with different speakers from time to time. Cheaper than experimenting with different amps! Not only cheaper, but often more profound tonal variation. Many, Many times the difference on one tone to another isn't the amp...
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