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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 8:01:45 GMT -7
Just received my new/used Therapy on Friday. Despite the fact that I've turned down the mid to zero, the amp still has a mean midrange bark (no Fender cleans in there). I replaced the preamp tubes with Svets (supposed to be a mellow 12ax), but still barking. The amp came with JJ power tubes and a JJ rectifier. I'm assuming the bark is coming from the JJs. Last week, before I got the amp, Irreveral suggested a 5751 in V1. Haven't done that yet; gotta buy one.
open to suggestions
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 12, 2017 8:20:00 GMT -7
Just received my new/used Therapy on Friday. Despite the fact that I've turned down the mid to zero, the amp still has a mean midrange bark (no Fender cleans in there). I replaced the preamp tubes with Svets (supposed to be a mellow 12ax), but still barking. The amp came with JJ power tubes and a JJ rectifier. I'm assuming the bark is coming from the JJs. Last week, before I got the amp, Irreveral suggested a 5751 in V1. Haven't done that yet; gotta buy one. open to suggestions What speakers are you using? Cab? Guitar?
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 9:06:48 GMT -7
Just received my new/used Therapy on Friday. Despite the fact that I've turned down the mid to zero, the amp still has a mean midrange bark (no Fender cleans in there). I replaced the preamp tubes with Svets (supposed to be a mellow 12ax), but still barking. The amp came with JJ power tubes and a JJ rectifier. I'm assuming the bark is coming from the JJs. Last week, before I got the amp, Irreveral suggested a 5751 in V1. Haven't done that yet; gotta buy one. open to suggestions What speakers are you using? Cab? Guitar?
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 9:09:11 GMT -7
Yea, that's the other issue that I know of that I forgot to mention. Got an Avatar 2x12 with two celestion Classic Lead 80s. I know that doesn't help matters, but I have gotten better mid scoops from other amps with that cab. Guitars: various single coil neck pups.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Mar 12, 2017 9:29:11 GMT -7
If you haven't tried it. Turn the master up all the way and then bring the volume up. You should be getting some cleans that way but not Fender Twin cleans. It's a different amp with the master all the way up and a little volume from with the master down and volume up.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 12, 2017 9:31:15 GMT -7
Hm. I'm not familiar with those speakers, so I can't really give you much help. They may be the problem. I'm running my Therapy through either a Celestion Alnico Gold, or the Dr. Z 12 in my Z-Lux. I don't have any barking mids with either speaker, using my Strat neck pup. So I have to assume it must be your speaker setup.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 9:50:19 GMT -7
The amp has a ton of mid range and with the wrong speaker can get honky. If you can, try playing with the master wide open and volume to taste. Increasing the master and gain seems to introduce more treble into the circuit and wash out some of the mids. Also, bringing the bass and treble up to around noon works like a charm, although the bass can get boomy. I usually run my bass almost completely off, and treble around 2 o'clock.
Mids usually sit around noon, but I just put KT77's back in and have dialed them back to around 10 o'clock.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 9:57:04 GMT -7
If you haven't tried it. Turn the master up all the way and then bring the volume up. You should be getting some cleans that way but not Fender Twin cleans. It's a different amp with the master all the way up and a little volume from with the master down and volume up. yep, tried that. master all the way up, then raise volume. still not there with scoop.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 9:57:29 GMT -7
Speaking of Barking Therapy, she has gotten very vocal and stubborn in her old age. Any help you can offer here would be greatly appreciated...
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 9:58:12 GMT -7
Hm. I'm not familiar with those speakers, so I can't really give you much help. They may be the problem. I'm running my Therapy through either a Celestion Alnico Gold, or the Dr. Z 12 in my Z-Lux. I don't have any barking mids with either speaker, using my Strat neck pup. So I have to assume it must be your speaker setup. don't think it has anything to do with the JJs?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 12, 2017 11:37:32 GMT -7
Hm. I'm not familiar with those speakers, so I can't really give you much help. They may be the problem. I'm running my Therapy through either a Celestion Alnico Gold, or the Dr. Z 12 in my Z-Lux. I don't have any barking mids with either speaker, using my Strat neck pup. So I have to assume it must be your speaker setup. don't think it has anything to do with the JJs? No, not really. I've never observed tube changes making monumental differences in tone. Usually more subtle than that. In fact, even Dr. Z has stated numerous times that speakers change the tone more than any other single variable in your tone chain. In my experience, he's right. The other thing that matters is if the speakers are broken in. I'm assuming yours are, but in case that isn't the case, this is really important. Plenty of examples of brand new speakers sounding horrible until they smooth out. Takes about 40 hours or so of punishment before that happens, which I'm sure you already know.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 12:33:26 GMT -7
don't think it has anything to do with the JJs? No, not really. I've never observed tube changes making monumental differences in tone. Usually more subtle than that. In fact, even Dr. Z has stated numerous times that speakers change the tone more than any other single variable in your tone chain. In my experience, he's right. The other thing that matters is if the speakers are broken in. I'm assuming yours are, but in case that isn't the case, this is really important. Plenty of examples of brand new speakers sounding horrible until they smooth out. Takes about 40 hours or so of punishment before that happens, which I'm sure you already know. Yea, the cabinet is old; the speakers are broken in. Hmmmm . . . I'll play with it a bit more. if I can't find what I want, it'll be going up for sale on the board : (
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Post by dcarver on Mar 12, 2017 14:44:23 GMT -7
Speaking of Barking Therapy, she has gotten very vocal and stubborn in her old age. Any help you can offer here would be greatly appreciated... Have you tried Tone Sausages ?
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Post by walt on Mar 12, 2017 15:00:16 GMT -7
I like the mids on the Therapy-through the Z-12 speaker it sounds great.Since I got it back from the repair shop I am playing mostly clean because I am loveing the cleans so much.With a G&L S-500 btw. Master-noon,Bass-10 o clock,Mid-2 o clock,Treble 11:30,Volume-8:30 With these settings I am getting this tone-
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Post by pcns on Mar 12, 2017 15:54:30 GMT -7
If it were me . . . I would make sure all the tubes are factory spec tubes. Each time I try second guessing Dr Z I end up not liking the results. Factory tube types: V1: JJ ECC83, V2: Ruby 12AX7 AC5 HG+, V3-4: JJ 6L6 GC (matched pair), V5: Shu Guang 5AR4 The ruby in V2 is a pretty awesome sounding tube and I really like the Shu Guang 5AR4 (I bought a NOS rectifier for mine and end up staying with factory tube because it sounded so much better to me) 2nd thing, Steve hit the nail on the head, speaker choice can make a huge difference. I would start with speakers that Dr Z sells since those are the speakers that the amp was created with and see how that goes. Typically Z uses a nicely broke in Zbest in the shop. I have an Avatar cab with a pair of V30's that sound really great with my all stock Therapy. I recall reading that Dr Z liked the Therapy with Celestian Golds the best and a V30 is a similar voiced speaker and sounds real good with my amp. I have used Greenbacks with mine as well and they sounded wonderful, a tad dark but really nice. Now that I have a Z lux will have to give my Therapy a try with the 12" Dr Z speaker. Good luck with your tone quest, Todd
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 12, 2017 16:09:38 GMT -7
If it were me . . . I would make sure all the tubes are factory spec tubes. Each time I try second guessing Dr Z I end up not liking the results. Factory tube types: V1: JJ ECC83, V2: Ruby 12AX7 AC5 HG+, V3-4: JJ 6L6 GC (matched pair), V5: Shu Guang 5AR4 The ruby in V2 is a pretty awesome sounding tube and I really like the Shu Guang 5AR4 (I bought a NOS rectifier for mine and end up staying with factory tube because it sounded so much better to me) 2nd thing, Steve hit the nail on the head, speaker choice can make a huge difference. I would start with speakers that Dr Z sells since those are the speakers that the amp was created with and see how that goes. Typically Z uses a nicely broke in Zbest in the shop. I have an Avatar cab with a pair of V30's that sound really great with my all stock Therapy. I recall reading that Dr Z liked the Therapy with Celestian Golds the best and a V30 is a similar voiced speaker and sounds real good with my amp. I have used Greenbacks with mine as well and they sounded wonderful, a tad dark but really nice. Now that I have a Z lux will have to give my Therapy a try with the 12" Dr Z speaker. Good luck with your tone quest, Todd Thanks Todd. I agree about stock tube choice. Also, I have read good things about the Ruby AC5HG+. I do plan to buy one. BTW: I guess V2 is the phase inverter, correct?
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Post by nmz on Mar 12, 2017 20:27:14 GMT -7
Just received my new/used Therapy on Friday. Despite the fact that I've turned down the mid to zero, the amp still has a mean midrange bark (no Fender cleans in there). I replaced the preamp tubes with Svets (supposed to be a mellow 12ax), but still barking. The amp came with JJ power tubes and a JJ rectifier. I'm assuming the bark is coming from the JJs. Last week, before I got the amp, Irreveral suggested a 5751 in V1. Haven't done that yet; gotta buy one. open to suggestions I went through the same thing. It is not a tube thing it is a speaker thing. Get away from celestions, far away. I ended up with a WGS Vet 30, yes it is based on a V30 but it got rid of that bark for me. Also eminence governor worked well and the new Z speaker. I want to try the Z speaker again after it is broken in. It currently is on loan to a friend who is doing that for me as we speak.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Mar 14, 2017 11:29:55 GMT -7
Through many years, many amps, and many tubes and I completely agree. Tubes "shade" the tone, IMO, and speakers can change the tone. I'm always amused at the grand descriptions of effect on tone by change in tubes within a given type. I've been able to A/B tubes back to back, had the tubes changed in "blind" tests, and while you can definitely hear the change but it's not dramatic. More of a subtle change in tone or clean headroom, etc.
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Post by John on Mar 14, 2017 15:40:41 GMT -7
Barking Therapy....didn't they open for Men At Work in 1982?
But seriously folks...
Tube changes...nothing but subtle changes in tone/feel. Speaker changes and open/closed cabinet changes.....LOTS of tone changes. Classic Lead 80's, if I remember correctly, are supposed to be very neutral sounding speakers. Not any real identifying characteristics. (great for modeling amps.)
I have run into situations where an amp can have lots of 'barking' midrange when played alone and at low volumes. But put it in a live band format, and it's just fine.
Usually when people say 'Fender cleans', they mean blackface. And blackface amps have greatly reduced mids. (as opposed to the tweeds.) So I could see a Therapy not having the same mid signature as a blackface.
Ya wanna get rid of mids? Get a G12H30. Lots of bass and crispy highs, but recessed mids.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 14, 2017 15:59:59 GMT -7
Barking Therapy....didn't they open for Men At Work in 1982? But seriously folks... Tube changes...nothing but subtle changes in tone/feel. Speaker changes and open/closed cabinet changes.....LOTS of tone changes. Classic Lead 80's, if I remember correctly, are supposed to be very neutral sounding speakers. Not any real identifying characteristics. (great for modeling amps.) I have run into situations where an amp can have lots of 'barking' midrange when played alone and at low volumes. But put it in a live band format, and it's just fine. Usually when people say 'Fender cleans', they mean blackface. And blackface amps have greatly reduced mids. (as opposed to the tweeds.) So I could see a Therapy not having the same mid signature as a blackface. Ya wanna get rid of mids? Get a G12H30. Lots of bass and crispy highs, but recessed mids. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wow, you know your music history - yes they did open for men at work, but it was in '83 ; ) But seriously folks: True, I guess I meant blackface cleans, but I also like the tweed sound too, so I was shooting for an amp that could do both. Regarding CL80s: I suppose they are neutral when compared to other Celestions, but I'm sure they're a lot different than a Jensen. I want to buy a Jensen-loaded cabinet anyway, but I'll research the G1230 too. Beyond that: I wanted to post my most recent experiment with the tone controls on the Therapy. I have played many amps that don't even have a mid control. From what I've read and have been told, it's a good idea to boost the bass and treble to create the 'auditory illusion' of scooping the mids. I was doing that with the therapy, along with zeroing the mids. I still got a brash tone. However, I have since lowered the bass and treble to about the 1-2 o'clock position, and that helped get much closer to what I'm looking for in tone. Seems counter-intuitive, but it does work. Yet, the quest continues.
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Post by pcns on Mar 14, 2017 19:42:59 GMT -7
Turn the knobs with your ears, not your eyes. Glad you finding some tone you like
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Post by simpleton on Mar 14, 2017 21:28:20 GMT -7
I always started with the B M T at 9 o'clock....then roll the mids down a bit and the Treble up some. I thought low bass helped get into Deluxe sounds. The controls offer more than enough, or maybe and over abundance of adjustments.....but I found less to add a bit more blackface esk sounds to my ears. A good reverb in front can help soften the sound some - like Fenders can feel.
Very active controls...less might be more.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 15, 2017 4:54:56 GMT -7
Turn the knobs with your ears, not your eyes. Glad you finding some tone you like Yea, I tried that but I couldn't get a grip on the knobs so I used my fingers ; ) Seriously, I did use my ears, but for the sake of communicating my findings, I gave a clock designation.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Mar 15, 2017 4:58:56 GMT -7
I always started with the B M T at 9 o'clock....then roll the mids down a bit and the Treble up some. I thought low bass helped get into Deluxe sounds. The controls offer more than enough, or maybe and over abundance of adjustments.....but I found less to add a bit more blackface esk sounds to my ears. A good reverb in front can help soften the sound some - like Fenders can feel. Very active controls...less might be more. Yea, good observation. I'm starting to learn that too. The controls seem very active, almost to the point that I don't need that much control over tone. Yet, I think you're right about front-end effects. Considering the amp doesn't have an effects loop, the hyperactive tone controls might be trying to compensate for front-end effects, hence more control.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 15, 2017 6:13:32 GMT -7
Turn the knobs with your ears, not your eyes. Yea, I tried that but I couldn't get a grip on the knobs so I used my fingers ; ) OK best response in this topic...
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Post by JeffG on Mar 16, 2017 19:38:32 GMT -7
Yep, bass either off entirely or at 10 with a tele.
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Post by SukeyTawdry on Apr 4, 2017 7:50:13 GMT -7
Barking Therapy TAMED !!!! Just writing to thank all of you who gave me some great advice for my new 'barking therapy.'
changed V1 to a 5751 changed V2 to a Svet 12ax7 (softer to my ears in most amps) changed the rectifier to a Genalex GZ34 (expensive, I know) kept the JJ 6L6s Rolled back the bass (have the mid zeroed) tried a 1x15 neo in a front shelf ported bass cab. NICE ! Regarding the tube change, the amp is much quieter now too. possibly had a bum tube somewhere.
Results - WOW. The amp is a keeper now.
thanks folks : )
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