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Post by markT on Jan 14, 2017 9:11:08 GMT -7
I took delivery of my cure Thursday afternoon. Lifting it from the box I very much enjoyed the light weight of it. My immediate interest in this amp was the simple, smaller size ZLux tone on half power. Upon first chord I was disappointed that deep, resonant low end from I get from the ZLux on half power was not there. Awesome clarity,sparkling high quality Z sounds, but missing was the much missed lows. More of a middy tone. I understand it's not exactly half the same amp. Smaller transformers, smaller cab, 2 6V6's vs 4.....but was hoping for at least some of that glorious bass of the ZLux. Once I got over the bass depth missing, I settled into some of the most satisfying low volume, high gain tones I've ever experienced! Sweet, singing, highly harmonic tones at whisper volumes up to crowd pleasing levels. I am really seeing & hearing more closer overdrive tones of my Therapy. Same tone control layout....except for the Level control which is amazing! My favorite tones are the Volume & Master wide open, Treble 10 O'clock, Mid at noon and Bass at 3 O'clock....Level to taste or circumstances. As I said, whisper or club levels. Anywhere in between. No Brake-Lite needed on this one folks~ I'm sure this little high quality, low cost Z will be a big hit. In my opinion and needs, the Cure excels as a mid to high gain machine where the ZLux excels as a clean to mid gain, full featured powerhouse. I'm calling this amp my Therapy Jr combo!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 9:28:33 GMT -7
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Even though it's Z Lux inspired, I had a feeling this bad boy was going to have more overlap with the Therapy based on a post from a Z employee over at TGP. Does it have as much drive as the Therapy???
PS - That level control is the real game changer...
PPS - Not to hijack, but the Therapy has a ton of thump, how much thump does the Z Lux have???
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Post by Faze on Jan 14, 2017 9:39:14 GMT -7
The Z-Lux has plenty of thump! It's got a huge surround sound tone. The bass on the Z-Lux is excellent. Better then my Vibro Kings that I ended up selling.
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Post by Faze on Jan 14, 2017 10:04:58 GMT -7
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Even though it's Z Lux inspired, I had a feeling this bad boy was going to have more overlap with the Therapy based on a post from a Z employee over at TGP. Does it have as much drive as the Therapy??? PS - That level control is the real game changer... PPS - Not to hijack, but the Therapy has a ton of thump, how much thump does the Z Lux have??? I have both the therapy and the Z-Lux both excellent amps. But I would have to say the Z-lux has more thump. And that's based on the z speaker both my Z lux combo and therapy 1/12 cab have that speaker.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 11:39:59 GMT -7
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Even though it's Z Lux inspired, I had a feeling this bad boy was going to have more overlap with the Therapy based on a post from a Z employee over at TGP. Does it have as much drive as the Therapy??? PS - That level control is the real game changer... PPS - Not to hijack, but the Therapy has a ton of thump, how much thump does the Z Lux have??? I have both the therapy and the Z-Lux both excellent amps. But I would have to say the Z-lux has more thump. And that's based on the z speaker both my Z lux combo and therapy 1/12 can have that speaker. Good to know. Been a while since I played a Z Lux, but the Therapy will knock pictures off the wall with a humbucker guitar even with the bass down low and the cab open back-ed. Now, back to talking about the Cure...
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Post by markT on Jan 14, 2017 11:51:04 GMT -7
Does it have as much drive as the Therapy??? Cure seems to have more gain than the Therapy.....at much lower volumes. I never use a attenuator with the Therapy...or ZLux for that matter. But you'd need one to get this much gain. Cure has singing harmonic feedback.....with single coils w/ volume & master maxed...EQ Bypass Boost engaged. NO PEDALS NEEDED!!
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Post by frankie on Jan 14, 2017 12:10:50 GMT -7
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Even though it's Z Lux inspired, I had a feeling this bad boy was going to have more overlap with the Therapy based on a post from a Z employee over at TGP. Does it have as much drive as the Therapy??? PS - That level control is the real game changer... PPS - Not to hijack, but the Therapy has a ton of thump, how much thump does the Z Lux have??? I just want to mention a few days back when Doc, Don, and I were playing around and had a Therapy, Cure, and Z-Lux (set at half power) together in the room. I remarked, "at noon, the Cure is giving me more of a Therapy-vibe than Z-Lux right now." And as the gain went up into overdrive, Doc concurred. However, Don reached over and lowered the gain/volume again, scooped the Mid knob, tweeked the treble to 1:30 and raised the Master and the Cure took on that "blackface" sound the Z-Lux does so well.
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Post by markT on Jan 14, 2017 13:23:56 GMT -7
This amp sounds best thick & chewy!!! And that it is!!
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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Jan 14, 2017 14:44:02 GMT -7
Upon first chord I was disappointed that deep, resonant low end from I get from the ZLux on half power was not there. I'll be interested if this changes once the speaker breaks in.
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Post by Maddog on Jan 15, 2017 4:59:12 GMT -7
Man, my tinnitus is liking this thread..... Cool report, Mark! Thanks, Brother!
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jan 15, 2017 5:40:51 GMT -7
Man, my tinnitus is liking this thread..... Cool report, Mark! Thanks, Brother! Amen to that, brother Lee!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 6:03:22 GMT -7
Congrats on the new amp, Mark. Sounds like something I'd love to try sometime...I like the idea of no pedals to reach a sweet OD tone.
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Post by Jason Cornelius on Jan 15, 2017 7:43:50 GMT -7
I ordered mine to replace an old Princeton Reverb that I mainly used for low volume cleans. I know I'll love the cure, but am I going to miss the PR?
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Post by doctorice on Jan 15, 2017 8:19:04 GMT -7
Now that the first gig with the amp is behind, I'm going to explore MarkT's pathway to the Cure Added: Pulled the gear from the car and stowed. Fired up the Cure, went hard right on V and Master, full throttle on eq bypass. Yes, Mark, there is a bit of gain in there!
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Post by Figaro on Jan 15, 2017 12:23:54 GMT -7
Hello, first post here and I'm sorry it's not more positive. But please take this as positive criticism.
The Cure I received did not have enough low end for me. I had to turn the Bass way up. As Dr Z has said, it's really not a Z-Lux Jr because the Z-Lux has plenty of low end. I'm sure it will have a little more after the speaker breaks in but it's not going to be enough for me. I don't understand why it was not voiced with more low end because it has a Bass control that can be turned down? You really need that low end at lower volumes and you turn it down for higher volumes. I'm sure it is a great amp for gigging.
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Post by simpleton on Jan 15, 2017 12:54:45 GMT -7
Hello, first post here and I'm sorry it's not more positive. But please take this as positive criticism. The Cure I received did not have enough low end for me. I had to turn the Bass way up. As Dr Z has said, it's really not a Z-Lux Jr because the Z-Lux has plenty of low end. I'm sure it will have a little more after the speaker breaks in but it's not going to be enough for me. I don't understand why it was not voiced with more low end because it has a Bass control that can be turned down? You really need that low end at lower volumes and you turn it down for higher volumes. I'm sure it is a great amp for gigging. It's a smaller cab which will also reduce bass. Will sit FANTASTIC with an actual Bass player as you noted....a simple speaker swap to a more bass prominent speaker might get you to happy town. You can't build an amp to be everyone's idea of perfect. When the Therapy came out I heard it had to much Bass.....I think it's just right. I've thought about a Cure but the smaller cab can be a bit more boxy compared to bigger cabs.....taken for its own voice I'm sure it will grow on you.
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Post by Figaro on Jan 15, 2017 19:25:08 GMT -7
It's not the cabinet because it's really not that small and other amps with smaller cabinets have more low end. And it's not the speaker. It's the way the circuit is designed. I would just rather have more low end available for a fuller sound when needed and be able to turn the Bass down when I don't need as much.
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Post by DRZ on Jan 15, 2017 21:51:29 GMT -7
Five days ago you posted on the Gear Page that you were returning the CURE. You compared it and liked your Samamp better.
I find it odd why are you bashing the product that you no longer have on TGP, and now on my forum ?
Does it have anything to do with me refusing your multiple phone requests for me to sell you one direct ? You called the shop 10 times in a two day period. By the way what was the serial number and who did you buy it from?
DR.Z
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Post by Figaro on Jan 16, 2017 5:35:34 GMT -7
Wow, I'm just giving my opinion, I'm not bashing it. You must have me mixed up with someone else because I didn't call 10 times. I don't have a dealer near me and didn't know if you sold direct or not so I called and spoke to you once to ask about buying it direct. You told me you didn't sell direct and I said no problem. I'm just giving my opinion about it not having enough low end FOR ME. How is that bashing it? I also said it would be a great amp for gigging. I guess you don't want people to give honest opinions?
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Post by DRZ on Jan 16, 2017 6:32:22 GMT -7
You called multiple times after I spoke with you, I'm quite busy so I let your calls go to VM. You no longer have the amp I believe, you played it for an hour or so compared it to your Samamp and sent it back. This is what you posted on TGP.
Now you state it is a DESIGN FLAW that doesn't allow for enough Bass response to meet your taste, I call that more then just an opinion. With your knowledge of tube amp design , maybe you would grace me with one of your designs for me to critic .
Your opinion is fine Figaro, the amp wasn't for you, give it a rest.
IMHO I listened each CURE that left here and I was amazed at how big the little amp sounded at all volume levels. The cab is extremely resonant , not boxy in any way. And I listen to the amp with the EQ set at 12 O'clock and I adjust Vol., Master, and Level , different guitars and different players, I heard a rich warm amp, with great overdrive and an amazing new LEVEL control for a rock bottom price. Listening to sound samples ( recorded on an iPhone ) I hear NO lack of bass response.
I know this is a new era, I like to call it the AMAZON.COM era, you have room on your credit card , you don't want to demo an amp in public so you order one with the thought that I'll return it before the CC charge hits. I just see this way too often lately.
DR.Z
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Post by Figaro on Jan 16, 2017 7:21:19 GMT -7
I don't appreciate being attacked by you or you insinuating that I received and returned the amp in a dishonorable way. As I already said, I don't have a dealer near me to try one out so I ordered one. They were very nice and said they understand that certain amps may not be for certain customers and that is why they have a return policy. I paid the shipping both ways and had no problem with doing that.
I never stated it is a design FLAW. I said the reason is the way the circuit is designed. Is that not correct? I assume the circuit could be changed to give it more low end? Maybe a different value tone cap or two? You chose to voice it like it is. No problem, it is your design. Every amp sounds different, everyone hears differently and everyone prefers different sounds. I never said it sounded boxy. My ONLY criticism is that it doesn't have enough low end, FOR ME. I even said it is a good amp and I just gave my honest opinion about the sound of it. I didn't realize that you can't do that on your forum.
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Post by prspastor on Jan 16, 2017 7:58:23 GMT -7
Figaro, as you said, you are new here. A lot of us here have been loyal fans of Dr. Z for many years. Myself included. I have pictures of my family with doc from Z-Fest and doc has personally been of help to me when my amp was stolen from my office back in 2008. So that is the context for this forum.
That being said, Z has a wide variety of amps available to meet a wide variety of needs. Sounds like you didn't like The Cure. That's fine, and I think what Doc is saying is move on and don't have a campaign telling your story on multiple boards about your experience with the amp, which sounds honestly to be limited and very short. It comes off as you having an ulterior motive, whether you do or don't.
There was nothing wrong with the amp mechanically, the quality is there, but you didn't like it and returned it. I'd say leave it at that, but that's me. I don't have a gear page account so I don't know what you wrote there, but for doc to confront you about this tells me something is amiss.
I hope you have the opportunity to play other Z Amps, and I think this community will help you find the Z-Amp to best fit your needs. May I suggest a Z-Lux or Route 66? They have deeper bass that may meet your needs. Be a part of our community and we'll help you out, I promise. There are great people here.
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Post by DRZ on Jan 16, 2017 8:16:22 GMT -7
Well said John, thanks for the clearer headed response. Figaro, I was not trying to insult you, if you took it that way I understand and apologize. There is just more and more test and return of fragile tube amps going on nationwide.
I just tried my best to offer a very low cost high quality amp with a unique and original helpful circuit. And couldn't understand why you stated your case on TGP repeatedly, then joined this forum to echo you not connecting with the CURE again repeatedly.
Seemed to be more of an agenda , then an honest opinion is all , I guess I was wrong.
DR.Z
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2017 9:00:48 GMT -7
Must be new at TGP, too. The protocol there is to speak highly of even gear you DON'T like, as to keep the resale value high...
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Post by Figaro on Jan 16, 2017 9:42:30 GMT -7
irreversal, I've been on TGP for years and always give my honest opinions, positive or negative.
Dr Z, I did not start either of the threads here and on TGP. I posted because others are wanting information, reviews and opinions. That's what people do on forums. I just posted my opinion about the Cure and about ONE negative thing, not enough low end. I even started my post by saying that I was sorry that it wasn't more positive and please take it as positive criticism. So much for that. Most amps builders appreciate their customers letting them know what they like and what they don't like.
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Post by simpleton on Jan 16, 2017 10:15:27 GMT -7
irreversal, I've been on TGP for years and always give my honest opinions, positive or negative. Dr Z, I did not start either of the threads here and on TGP. I posted because others are wanting information, reviews and opinions. That's what people do on forums. I just posted my opinion about the Cure and about ONE negative thing, not enough low end. I even started my post by saying that I was sorry that it wasn't more positive and please take it as positive criticism. So much for that. Most amps builders appreciate their customers letting them know what they like and what they don't like. Wow you almost didn't insult anyone.....thanks for the opinion about the Cure. Why join this forum to state what you had already stated at TGP? Did you honestly think we couldn't figure it out over here? 1st post..... if I ever meet you and shake your hand I'll be sure to let you know what I think about you immediately.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2017 10:28:33 GMT -7
irreversal, I've been on TGP for years and always give my honest opinions, positive or negative. Dr Z, I did not start either of the threads here and on TGP. I posted because others are wanting information, reviews and opinions. That's what people do on forums. I just posted my opinion about the Cure and about ONE negative thing, not enough low end. I even started my post by saying that I was sorry that it wasn't more positive and please take it as positive criticism. So much for that. Most amps builders appreciate their customers letting them know what they like and what they don't like. There's a difference between giving an opinion, and trying to slam that opinion down people's throats. You see, what makes this place the best corner of the internet is that we don't do the latter. We simply discuss what works for us, what doesn't work, what we like, dislike, etc., so that we may be able to help someone who might be in a similar situation. Your dislike of the Cure turned into an indictment of a product that seems at the very least, to be another quality Z product at a smoking price. Further investigation yields a product that is down right revolutionary in the amp world. In an industry where we see re-hash after re-hash, did we forget how hard it is to create something new and exiting AND innovative in this market??? I'll probably primarily play (alliteration!) Z amps until the day I can no longer lift a guitar. That said, here comes a huge spoiler alert: Not all of them work for what I do, and some of them I downright don't like. That's on me, not the amp, and certainly not the designer. That's why he makes nearly two dozen amps. Don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole...
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Post by Figaro on Jan 16, 2017 10:50:17 GMT -7
Just gave my opinion. How did I slam it down people's throats???
And for full disclosure since some can't read my posts in the Cure thread on TGP, I have posted them below. A Dr Z employee that is on the TGP, his name there is Communarchy, responded nicely to my posts and appreciated my opinion.
"The combination of the Volume, Master and Level controls makes the Cure super versatile. Basically any sound (clean, overdrive, distortion) at any volume. The Cure can definitely can get loud enough to gig with. I really like it's Z speaker because it's efficient and has great clarity.
But... I'm going to return the Cure. Not because I don't like it, it's a great, awesome amp. It's just very close to my Samamp VAC 23 and I just prefer the sounds and features of the Samamp. If I didn't have the Samamp I would definitely be keeping the Cure. The Samamp has blackface and tweed sounds and the Cure has blackface and Marshall/Vox type sounds.
In my opinion, the Cure doesn't have enough low end. I had to turn the Bass control way up to barely have enough. Strange because the Z-Lux has plenty of low end and the Cure is described as the Z-Lux Jr.
I assure you, I'm not meaning to talk negative about the Cure. Just giving my opinion. It's a good, very versatile amp. It just wasn't for me.
I really want to give you constructive criticism. Thank you for the new description because it just doesn't sound like a Z-Lux Jr. Maybe the Cure is just for just gigging and not playing at lower volumes around the house? I mean, if it had more low end available, you can just turn the Bass control down if you want less. I had to turn the Bass all the way up to get it to sound full at lower volumes. The cabinet is plenty large enough and it has a great speaker. I tried it through another speaker and the sound was about the same. Again, this is just my opinion."
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Post by frankie on Jan 16, 2017 11:55:40 GMT -7
Hi, I'm the employee you spoke to on the forum, and I just want to make my last comment on this.
Figaro, it's unfortunate you didn't get along with the Cure. You have been direct in your criticism, but you have to understand that voicing your opinion repeatedly on TGP and now a forum that is inherently biased towards Z Amps is going to come off as a little much at best, and with perhaps a rude or ulterior agenda, at worst. I know that's not your intention, but this is how it's going to be interpreted.
But I'm going to address your criticism a little more pointedly since you are repeating it, and why I believe your opinion on the amp is a touch off base in this case. Please, know I have given a lot of thought on this, and it's meant with all due respect. You continually say "it's your opinion" and why we couldn't just have voiced the amp with more bass, and that it's not the speaker or cabinet, and I'm going to tell you why the amp is voiced as such, and ways that you could actually give it more bass, in case you ever decide to give it another go.
Firstly, the cabinet and speaker. There aren't smaller cabinets. Period. The Studio cab is the smallest possible cab you could fit a 12 inch speaker in. This is why I don't think you can make qualified statement like "it isn't the cabinet." Low end needs space to resonate and develop. Through a larger cab, like a Z Lux or Maz combo cab, you get a extended low end because of the space the speaker moves in is larger and can reproduce low frequencies, which physically need space to develop. We have tested it with the same speaker, different cabinets. It's simple physics. And to your ear, and your ear alone, in venue of your den or bedroom, it's not enough. That's fine. Even more, the Z12 is slightly less efficient than most speakers, voiced to have tighter bass, so maybe we could have suggested another speaker for you to try. I for one, would tell you that using a G12-65 in the place of a Z12 might work, as we do in the EZG, which is known for its big bottom end, partly due to this speaker choice.
You have stated that you owned/played the amp for a matter of hours before you decided you wanted to return it. Please ask yourself, is that really enough time to put it through it's paces, play it through other speaker cabs through the provided external output intended to increase dynamics and output volume by coupling with another cabinet? I must honestly doubt this. Further, you have deemed the Z Lux, that your presumably also own or have owned, as superior. That's great, without any sarcasm or barb, I am happy you hold the Z Lux in high regard. But understand it is an amp that has an output transformer that is literally more than twice the size of the Cure's, rated at 50 watts, two additional tubes, a totally different cabinet, solid state rectification, and twice the cost of the Cure. We can not carbon copy the Z Lux, shrink it down, chop a bunch of circuitry out of it from a design perspective, and sell it for half the cost, and expect it to sound exactly the same.
The Cure is a 15-20 watt amp in a compact cabinet, with a small, paper bobbin, hand wound transformer. It's made by the exact same company as the classic Tweed amps of the 50s. It does not have the bandwidth of a large 50 watt transformer. Again, this is physics. Low frequencies need extra output power and, more importantly, volume and space to develop to be heard, it's the much touted "Fletcher-Munson Curve." This isn't a metal amp with chugga chugga low end. It's actually amazing that we get the amount of gain we do out of the Cure with 12AT7 phase inverter, which is a lower gain tube. I must point out, you haven't mentioned the guitars or cabinets you tried the Cure with. From this standpoint, it's hard to address your criticism from an equally constructive and helpful position, but I will.
If you've made it this far, I want to give constructive tips to increase the low end, if ANYONE ELSE happens to have this problem.
1. Make sure the amp is coupled with the ground. Low frequencies resonate better with the amp on the floor. 2. Open the master volume all the way up. Doing this will open the "valve" to the power section and increase depth in the low end. Set your volume to suitable gain/distortion, and then use the level to take things down. 3. Try a long plate 12AX7 in the phase inverter like a Sovtek LPS. This will increase the bandwidth of the signal as it hits the power section. It will also increase gain. 4. As I mentioned before, a more efficient speaker might help bring the low end up at lower volumes. An H30 is very efficient and works with a lot of our designs. 5. Place an EQ in the effects loop. Since the effects loop is between the pre and power section, you can boost the low end even more with the proper push of the EQ, especially at low volumes.
The fact is that this amp wasn't made for the crowd who can afford a 2500 dollar amp, though we love you and appreciate you have kept us going for 30 years. We have other amps in the line for those who want more features, output, response, amenities. This amp was made to appeal to a GIGGING musician who wants a lightweight, affordable, reliable, and versatile amp to play day in and day out. I know there are a lot of bedroom players out there. We have amps in our line for those players, too. But this amp is intended to strike a balance between both. A level control for folks who need bedroom volumes without an attenuator, and enough volume and, more importantly, VOICE for the stage mix, all without breaking the bank or back. Every Z amp is voiced so that the natural voice of your guitar should speak with the controls at noon. Beyond that if you prefer a little more bass or a little more mids or a bit less top, the controls are there to contour your sound. I have worked at Z for nearly two years now and I hear the amps every day. I can tell you, every amp that gets play tested starts at noon on the controls. And every amp has to sound good at that setting, with that particular speaker choice, with that cabinet choice or it doesn't leave the shop. Try that with any Marshall or Fender an tell me how it works out. I guarantee there will be more idiosyncrasies and curves to those amps than ours. Not saying that ours are "better" but Z has learned and taken lessons from those designs and knows where to improve upon them. We will tell our dealers "no this amp does not work with this speaker/cabinet choice" and will not let an amp leave the shop if it doesn't sound right to us. So trust us when we say, the Cure is a gig-able amp as is, and if your drummer is John Bonham, disconnect the internal speaker and hook it up to a 4x12. I bet your bass player will disagree with you and tell you "get out of my space."
Hope this helps. Everyone play nice.
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Post by Figaro on Jan 16, 2017 12:32:45 GMT -7
Frankie, Thank you for a courteous and helpful response. I've been playing and modding guitar amps for over 40 years so I know just a little bit about them. All I really meant to convey was that if the Cure just had more low end available, you would be able turn the Bass control up for a fuller sound at low volumes and down for higher volumes. One of the main reasons I posted here was because I hoped that Dr Z would read it and consider changing part of the circuit for it to have more low end. But that didn't go so well. But no worries!
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