|
Post by hunter6726 on Jul 30, 2007 22:00:30 GMT -7
I just played a show on Broadway in Nashville with my Ray hooked to a variac. WOW! Now that is what I was looking for. My Ray is on ebay because I have been disgusted with the sound. Seems that the voltage in Nashville just sucks. The only thing is...Do I have to carry around that 25 lb. copper coil all the time for the amp to sound good?
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 30, 2007 22:32:37 GMT -7
Were you boosting the voltage, or lowering it? Just curious.
|
|
|
Post by hunter6726 on Jul 31, 2007 12:37:33 GMT -7
I set it at 115 v if the meter on the variac is right.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 31, 2007 13:11:21 GMT -7
I might try that. It might 'brown' it up a bit?
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 31, 2007 14:41:05 GMT -7
I set it at 115 v if the meter on the variac is right. So your theory is the voltage out of the wall was way low, causing the Stingray to lose some of its headroom? Interesting. Actually this is a major issue on class A/B amps when setting the bias - if the line voltage is off, the bias setting has to be equally off or when the line voltage comes back the bias will be way off. That isn't an issue in a Cathode Bias design like the Stingray, but it is interesting that you hear enough difference that it matters to you. Fascinating. It kind of makes me wonder about those off nights we sometimes have - was the voltage just way off?
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 31, 2007 15:37:18 GMT -7
I know club voltage can swing a lot. Here at my house it sometimes runs up to 123 volts. Another issue is vintage amps that were designed to run on 110. 120 is 10% hotter all thru the old amps. On one of my '57 Bassmans all of the voltages were way hotter inside than the Fender layout chart showed at all of the checkpoints. I installed a 50 or 100 volt (I forget which) reverse zener diode and lowered all of the voltages back down closer to what the chart said. The amp sounded a lot better afterwards. the downside is I drilled a hole in the chassis to do it. I didn't care too much about the money hit I might take on it in the future. I only had $125 in it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 31, 2007 17:53:28 GMT -7
I tried my old Staco variac with my Route 66 and my Stang Ray. My variac doesn't show actual voltages. The dial shows percentage of input voltage. Knocking it down to 90% and 80% mostly just sounded the same to me, just quieter. About the same as putting the Air Brake one click down. Using the Air Brake would probably be safer, easier and lighter to carry around. I didn't notice any difference in sag or any real tonal difference. as always, YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by Shannon on Aug 1, 2007 8:11:22 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by hunter6726 on Aug 1, 2007 9:51:23 GMT -7
The problem I am having playing in Nashville is the voltage swing. It is very scary. I have had a friend burn up two (not one) but two transformers in a MAZ 38 down at tootsies. He will not play nice amps on Broadway anymore. I took a meter in to the Second Fiddle and there was 132 volts out of the wall. My amp sounded sooooo bright. It was aweful. It sounds that way everytime I walk in and play anywhere downtown as was as many venues and festivals. I watched a friend play down there one night with a Korg RI AC30. He had Weber blues in it. He had an amazing sound coming from that amp. I was sitting trying to figure out how I could buy an amp that sounded that good. I already have a 63 AC30 and a Stingray. When it was time for us to go on, I notied a variac behind his amp. He told he will never play an AC30 with out the variac downtown. So I bought a cheap chinese one. It works great. I am amazed at the difference. I also talked to Todd Sharp at Nashville amplifier service in Franklin. He is known for his work world wide. He said that an old AC30 needs the 115 volts it calls for. If a ray is so close to an AC30 then I'm sure the ray needs the wright voltage as well. Kye Kennedy, another tube genious in Nashville says that he sets his cutomers up with variacs all the time. The problem is that he never sees them again for years, because their amps do not tear up. Here is a pic of Tom Britts set up. He was playing for Vince Gill when this was taken. This pic is from Zac Child's site... www.askzac.com Notice what he is plugged into...
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 1, 2007 14:56:45 GMT -7
I used a Variac with one of the old 50 watt Orange heads back in the '70's specifically to get the "brown sound" (and yeah, Eddie was still in Jr. Hi then) but I haven't used one since. Maybe I should pay more attention to the line voltages - could be I am experiencing something similar here and don't even know it.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Aug 1, 2007 15:41:13 GMT -7
sbrantley: Does that unit regulate the voltage? I have a Furman AR15 power regulator that I bought about 10 years ago.. I think it about $400. I quite using it because if the wall voltage fluctuated and the display would move between two voltalges, say 122 and 123, it would make a tick sound thru the amp. Drove me crazy. Maybe the new ones don't do that anymore. We played a gig one time where we ran off of a great big generator. The B3 sounded like it was drunk so the keyboard player couldn't use it. Everything sounded fine but the Hammond couldn't take the voltage swings.
|
|
|
Post by hdahs143 on Aug 1, 2007 16:43:31 GMT -7
Were you boosting the voltage, or lowering it? Just curious. Not to ask a dumb question, but a variac is not capable of raising the voltage any higher than the supply voltage is it? I thought they were like a variable voltage regulator, not a transformer.
|
|
|
Post by Shannon on Aug 1, 2007 17:18:17 GMT -7
I bought mine at Elite Music in Montgomery (a reputable establishment) while trying out a couple of Zs. They had 2 identical tube amps set up next to each other, one through the Power Factor, one not. There was a noticeable difference. From what the salesman said, and I'm sure you guys probably know this, most amps are set up to run at a certain voltage. (I don't remember what) According to him, the Power Factor brought down higher voltage circuits and would boost lower circuits to get the power to where it should be, while "cleaning" out the hum and protecting the amp from surge. I bought it on the spot. He claimed he wouldn't carry them at first, then he tried the side by side comparison (that I heard) and was glad to offer them. Some of you that are more in the know on the technical end of amps and such may be able to siffer through this. And maybe add to it. I know I feel better about plugging my amps in the rat holes we play.
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 1, 2007 17:56:09 GMT -7
Were you boosting the voltage, or lowering it? Just curious. Not to ask a dumb question, but a variac is not capable of raising the voltage any higher than the supply voltage is it? I thought they were like a variable voltage regulator, not a transformer. A Variac is what is known as a variable autotransformer. Depending on the model, they can indeed raise the line voltage. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer
|
|
|
Post by hdahs143 on Aug 1, 2007 21:16:23 GMT -7
Thanks Steve!
I had no idea. I always thought they just lowererd the voltage ala EVH.
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 1, 2007 22:25:32 GMT -7
I guess it should be obvious that you shouldn't run a variac without a decent meter on the output because most of them, with 100 VAC in, can produce from 0 VAC to around 140 VAC. If you don't have a meter on there, you could easily blow your amp to smithereens. You also need to make sure the variac is set up where it can't get accidentally turned up, for that exact same reason. Let's be careful out there!
|
|
|
Post by hunter6726 on Aug 2, 2007 0:04:19 GMT -7
Mine only goes up to 130. I think that would be OK for a little while in an accidental case.
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 2, 2007 5:41:43 GMT -7
Mine only goes up to 130. I think that would be OK for a little while in an accidental case. Well the trouble is, if the line in voltage is up to 132 as was mentioned above, your Variac can probably raise that to 140 or maybe higher.
|
|
|
Post by Phil (aka Phil) on Aug 8, 2007 7:02:25 GMT -7
I might be able to add something to this. My day job (i.e., how I afford my Z's) is in engineering at an electric utility. (I also amp tech, troubleshoot computers and I'm a semi-professional photographer, but that's another story.) The variac is a very useful device, but you have to be *really* careful when using one. Variacs can indeed both raise and lower voltage. You have to remember that the average "cheap" variac doesn't have an automatic setting where you plug it in and it *keeps* the voltage at 115V, or whatever. They either raise or lower the voltage by a percentage set by the knob.
The wall voltage from any utility varies, at some locations more than others. We are supposed to keep the voltage at the customer between 114V and 126V (a 5% variation up and down from the "nominal" 120V). Some areas of our system see practically that whole swing every day. So, if at the start of the night you set your variac at 115V, and the incoming wall voltage was lower at the time, by the end of the night the wall voltage could have drifted up to say, 123V without you realizing it, and your variac, having been set to "boost", is giving now your amps over 126V.
I personally would not gig without some kind of power conditioner, for many reasons. The foremost of which is the fact that a lot of clubs are wired incorrectly. If you carry one of those little testers that you can get with the three lights on it you'll see that a lot of places have the ground and neutral reversed, ground and a hot leg reversed, hot and neutral reversed, or no ground at all. That's BAD for our gear, even worse than fluctuating voltage. Buying one of those testers in the best $10 you'll ever spend.
I looked at the web site for the Furman Power Factor. It looks like a good device, with a couple of caveats.
First, there's a lot of marketing BS in the description (as usual). The unit is basically your standard surge supressor with noise filtering, with two additions: a LED voltage indicator on the front and capacitors added to "improve transient response". Whether this helps an guitar amp or keyboard deliver a better transient response is a dubious question. Bass amps all have capacitors built in for this purpose, but the requirements of a bass amp are very different from a guitar amp. Guitars aren't putting out ultra low frequencies at high volumes like a bass.
Second, the voltage indicator on the front seems to be just that: an indicator. The unit doesn't *regulate* the power; it just shows you what you're getting. (side note: I've learned in 20+ years in the industry to *never* trust an uncalibrated voltmeter, which this one isn't. We calibrate our volt meters twice a year. They drift over time.) So, don't think that it's going to keep the voltage to your amps at a certain level. A device that keeps the voltage at a set level is usually referred to as a voltage regulator. A conditioner is basically a surge supressor with filtering for electromagnetic interference.
On the bright side, the specs for the unit look better than your average $20 surge supressor. The spike clamping spec is indeed better than a lot of supressors (most "cheap" ones are rated at 600V).
My bottom line is this: I *never* diss or praise anything without having personally used it myself. If Shannon says that he could hear the difference in two identical amps, one with the Furman and one without, I believe him. I'm going to check one of these out for myself- I've been running with just an average surge supressor since my "rack" days. Just be aware of what units like this do and don't do. Just remember, to keep the voltage at a set level all the time you need a regulator like the Furman AR15 or AR15 II, which is more expensive.
Phil
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 8, 2007 9:08:39 GMT -7
All well said. Wouldn't it be nice to have one of these at every gig?
|
|
|
Post by Strato on Aug 8, 2007 13:03:50 GMT -7
The furman voltage regulators are very pricey. Does anyone make a good quality vlatage regulator for less? Or, is there variac that can maintain a constant voltage despite the wall voltage, and adjust accordingly when the wall voltage shifts?
|
|
|
Post by Phil (aka Phil) on Aug 10, 2007 4:26:10 GMT -7
I've never personally seen a Variac that has an automatic capability- they're intended for bench use and troubleshooting. One may exist, but I haven't seen it.
The cheapest true voltage regulator I've seen is a Furman 1215, which seem to go for around $550. I have no experience with this unit, though.
Phil
|
|
|
Post by Don on Aug 25, 2007 20:38:33 GMT -7
Excellent post Phil. To add, I NEVER go to a gig without my Furman Power Factor Pro. Everything get's plugged into it. It really is peace of mind, as well as protecting my gear.
|
|