hpdj
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by hpdj on Mar 26, 2015 22:03:00 GMT -7
Hey all,
Want to make this relatively short. Read a bunch of the helpful advice on these forums in regards to the Effects Loop on my Maz 18 Jr. NR. I came to realize that plugging straight into the front of the amp gave me a MUCH more present/alive sound and that using the Effects Loop with my time based pedals was robbing my tone somehow. I already HAD a buffered pedal in the loop BUT I went out and bought a stand along buffer anyway just to make sure and cover my bases and aid in my troubleshooting (T1M mini buffer...he is AWESOME to deal with btw).
So the mini buffer gets here and I'm trying it right after the send in the FX loop (no change) right before the return in the loop (no change) and now I'm scratching my head..............IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY EFFECTS LOOP??
I cleaned it with Deoxit (just as some here have suggested) and tightened any loose screws on the amp (the top screws that hold the chassis were a bit loose) and......no change. Plug straight in and my Tele has chime and bite and high end frequency. Plug pedals into the Send/Return on the back and the tone is severely robbed. Unplug the pedals in the loop and everything comes back to life!
I tried running all my pedals through the front for a change and they sound good there. Definitely no tone-suck like when using the loop but......there has to be SOMETHING wrong with my Effects Loop right?? What am I missing?
My Maz is from 2011, the first year the loop came standard...along with the EQ bypass.
Please help, thanks so much!
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Mar 29, 2015 4:29:40 GMT -7
Have you tried just plugging a short cable from the amp 'send' back to 'return'? Try that, and if there is no difference in tone you can eliminate the effects loop as the problem.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 29, 2015 11:19:38 GMT -7
Have you tried just plugging a short cable from the amp 'send' back to 'return'? Try that, and if there is no difference in tone you can eliminate the effects loop as the problem. Dave is absolutely right here. If straight wire sounds fine, the loop is working correctly. But keep this in mind - every loop has different characteristics, and every effects unit does as well. Some effects just don't work as well in certain loops. It all has to do with impedance matching, which is what the buffer is supposed to resolve. I eventually gave up trying to get my G-System to run correctly in the loop, as it behaved differently on every amp I owned. I couldn't keep track of all the tricks I had to use to get it to sound right. For such an expensive unit, it was very frustrating that it did not have the ability to properly match every loop it encountered. It is even worse with effects specifically designed to hit the front end of the amp. It is very difficult to get them to sound right in the loop, even with a buffer. Again, it depends on the loop, the device, the buffer, and apparently the phase of the moon.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Mar 29, 2015 14:51:56 GMT -7
Steve nails it here...impedance matching is really important, and a good buffer will eliminate the trouble that you might have (attenuated high frequencies, muddy sound etc). Ideally, you want a low impedance output from the amplifier's loop, into a high impedance input at the effect. Then a low impedance output from the effect into a high impedance return at the amp. This way the signal is driven through the effects boxes without affecting it negatively. That's for low level signals. Tube amplifier output transformers need to be matched to the speaker load for maximum power transfer.
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hpdj
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by hpdj on Mar 31, 2015 10:52:13 GMT -7
Depends on "the phase of the moon" haha! Well, I want thank you two for your suggestions and thoughts on this matter! I had been meaning to test the effects loop by just plugging in a short patch cable into the return and send but....it kept slipping my mind so thanks for that reminder! It turns out that when I tried this the amp sounded fine so that definitely eliminated the effects loop as the issue....and then I had to go through some serious troubleshooting the get to the bottom of things. I posted my findings in detail over on the Maz 18 Jr. threads but, in short......it wasn't until I used a SHORT patch cable directly from the send in my loop....straight to my buffer and then to my long cables to my pedals....that I noticed what the buffer could do in restoring my tone and....BOY did that do the trick!! Maybe someone can explain why that is? Or we'll chalk it up to the phases of the moon again haha.. Does it sound as good as pluggin straight into the amp with nothing in the loop at all? Noooot quite, but it's close now. It's b/t 80 and 90% of the tone I get with nothing in the loop and......that's WAY better then what I was getting before My buffer is a dual buffer (from Dan at T1M effects) so I'm not sure if there is much of a difference from just using the buffer right after the send OR when using the buffer right after the send AND right before the return at the same time....will have to do more "testing"...but for now I'm using both buffers and I'm MUCH happier with the tone then I was before! That buffer will now live on the back of my amp...attached with some velcro.. Thanks again for all you help, your the best!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 1, 2015 5:24:42 GMT -7
Ah, cable length - not sure why I didn't see that coming. Longer cables attenuate signal - cables have an impedance too. The shorter the better, but that's not always going to be the most convenient. Do a test - set up your whole pedal situation with the shortest cables you have. Bet it sounds the best you've heard it.
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hpdj
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by hpdj on Apr 3, 2015 11:54:18 GMT -7
I'm sure your right Steve, I'll have to try that out one day thanks! (don't have shorter cables to try it out right now though)
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Post by zpilot on Apr 7, 2015 11:30:19 GMT -7
Depends on "the phase of the moon" haha! Well, I want thank you two for your suggestions and thoughts on this matter! I had been meaning to test the effects loop by just plugging in a short patch cable into the return and send but....it kept slipping my mind so thanks for that reminder! It turns out that when I tried this the amp sounded fine so that definitely eliminated the effects loop as the issue....and then I had to go through some serious troubleshooting the get to the bottom of things. I posted my findings in detail over on the Maz 18 Jr. threads but, in short......it wasn't until I used a SHORT patch cable directly from the send in my loop....straight to my buffer and then to my long cables to my pedals....that I noticed what the buffer could do in restoring my tone and....BOY did that do the trick!! Maybe someone can explain why that is? Or we'll chalk it up to the phases of the moon again haha.. Does it sound as good as pluggin straight into the amp with nothing in the loop at all? Noooot quite, but it's close now. It's b/t 80 and 90% of the tone I get with nothing in the loop and......that's WAY better then what I was getting before My buffer is a dual buffer (from Dan at T1M effects) so I'm not sure if there is much of a difference from just using the buffer right after the send OR when using the buffer right after the send AND right before the return at the same time....will have to do more "testing"...but for now I'm using both buffers and I'm MUCH happier with the tone then I was before! That buffer will now live on the back of my amp...attached with some velcro.. Thanks again for all you help, your the best! There is a link on this forum to a really good tutorial on buffers. Sorry, I don't remember where it is so you'll have to search for it. I personally use a dual buffer made by Carl Martin and it allows me to use about ANY length of cable from my pedal-board to the amp. If I was using an effects loop I would definitely use a buffer as close to the send as I could. Try to find that link. It'll explain what you need to know.
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Post by TNTall on Jan 8, 2019 5:59:48 GMT -7
Hello all. Resurrecting an old thread here looking for help with delay pedals in the effects loop. I have the following results both on my Maz 18 and Maz 8 using Flashback and Carbon Copy pedals
I'm getting muffled repeats from my delay pedals in high gain. The Flashback has an analog thru that lets the dry signal through, and I can tell that sounds fine, but the repeats sound muffled when I dig in and put a high gain signal through. If I play lightly it is ok, but still not nearly as clear as when I run the delay pedal to front of amp. I'm having similar problems with the Carbon Copy Deluxe, and I've tried it on both internal settings where it's made to use in or out of an fx loop.
You guys are talking about adding buffers, but the amps are supposed to be tube buffered already, and I thought that was supposed to eliminate the need. Also, if a buffer was my problem it seems the dry sound would be bad, but the sound is great with the delay pedal off. Are some delay pedals just not suited for fx loops? I must be missing something. I get the best and hottest tone when I plug my guitar straight to front of amp instead of having pedals between, so I would prefer to have all pedals in the fx loop.
Thanks
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jan 8, 2019 7:00:58 GMT -7
I may be off base, but what you're describing sounds like the nature of the delay pedal. In other words what it was designed to do. They are supposed to emulate an old tape delay where the repeats degrade. Try your flashback on one of the other digital settings. See if that makes a difference. The analog setting is supposed to emulate that degrading repeat. I have never had an amp with an effects loop, (but I think my Z-Plus does and I haven't used it yet), but I believe when using the effects loop for time based effects, the idea is the effects' sound seems to become more part of your amp. That analog repeat degradation would be more noticeable in the effects loop than in front of the amp. Perhaps someone more versed in the use of the effects loop will chime in.
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Post by TNTall on Jan 8, 2019 7:45:32 GMT -7
I may be off base, but what you're describing sounds like the nature of the delay pedal. In other words what it was designed to do. They are supposed to emulate an old tape delay where the repeats degrade. Try your flashback on one of the other digital settings. See if that makes a difference. The analog setting is supposed to emulate that degrading repeat. I have never had an amp with an effects loop, (but I think my Z-Plus does and I haven't used it yet), but I believe when using the effects loop for time based effects, the idea is the effects' sound seems to become more part of your amp. That analog repeat degradation would be more noticeable in the effects loop than in front of the amp. Perhaps someone more versed in the use of the effects loop will chime in. Hi thanks for the response.
The muffled repeats are happening with Flashback in digital mode where usually they are crisp and sound exactly like the dry.
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Post by zpilot on Jan 8, 2019 9:38:27 GMT -7
Neither the MAZ 18 nor the MAZ 8 have buffered effects loops. If you are connecting effects with cables longer than a couple of feet you need a buffer in-line from the "effects out" jack. Again, the cable from the "effects out" jack to the buffer should be as short as possible and no more than a couple of feet. With a buffer at that point you do not need another one going to the "return" jack. If your effects are true bypass the return jack will mostly see the impedance from the first buffer when the effects are off. If they are on then the return will see the buffered output of the effects. Either way those buffers will adequately drive the signal and adding a return buffer just adds unneeded circuitry which might color your tone.
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Post by TNTall on Jan 13, 2019 6:10:11 GMT -7
Neither the MAZ 18 nor the MAZ 8 have buffered effects loops. If you are connecting effects with cables longer than a couple of feet you need a buffer in-line from the "effects out" jack. Again, the cable from the "effects out" jack to the buffer should be as short as possible and no more than a couple of feet. With a buffer at that point you do not need another one going to the "return" jack. If your effects are true bypass the return jack will mostly see the impedance from the first buffer when the effects are off. If they are on then the return will see the buffered output of the effects. Either way those buffers will adequately drive the signal and adding a return buffer just adds unneeded circuitry which might color your tone. This is copied from the Maz 18 page on drzamps.com: "-Buffered effects loop for seamless, transparent integration with your pedalboard." Am I missing something?
If signal loss from lack of buffer was my problem, the dry signal wouldn't sound as good as it does. It is ONLY the repeats that sound bad. The dry sounds awesome and clear. It is as if the pedals cannot process a high-gain preamped signal.
I have an update on this issue... I tried my old TC Nova delay pedal that runs on 12V, and it does NOT have this issue. The repeats are as clear as the dry. Calling it a dry signal is misleading though because it digitizes the dry instead of sending it thru as analog, and that's why I quit using it. The Nova has a calibration feature where it can be adjusted to the input, so maybe that's the difference.
I have been reluctant to buy a Strymon Timeline because they are so expensive, but I am going to demo one and see if it works well in fx loop. It has analog thru.
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Post by zpilot on Jan 13, 2019 8:51:09 GMT -7
Neither the MAZ 18 nor the MAZ 8 have buffered effects loops. If you are connecting effects with cables longer than a couple of feet you need a buffer in-line from the "effects out" jack. Again, the cable from the "effects out" jack to the buffer should be as short as possible and no more than a couple of feet. With a buffer at that point you do not need another one going to the "return" jack. If your effects are true bypass the return jack will mostly see the impedance from the first buffer when the effects are off. If they are on then the return will see the buffered output of the effects. Either way those buffers will adequately drive the signal and adding a return buffer just adds unneeded circuitry which might color your tone. This is copied from the Maz 18 page on drzamps.com: "-Buffered effects loop for seamless, transparent integration with your pedalboard." Am I missing something?
If signal loss from lack of buffer was my problem, the dry signal wouldn't sound as good as it does. It is ONLY the repeats that sound bad. The dry sounds awesome and clear. It is as if the pedals cannot process a high-gain preamped signal.
I have an update on this issue... I tried my old TC Nova delay pedal that runs on 12V, and it does NOT have this issue. The repeats are as clear as the dry. Calling it a dry signal is misleading though because it digitizes the dry instead of sending it thru as analog, and that's why I quit using it. The Nova has a calibration feature where it can be adjusted to the input, so maybe that's the difference.
I have been reluctant to buy a Strymon Timeline because they are so expensive, but I am going to demo one and see if it works well in fx loop. It has analog thru.
My Flint works better in my loop than some other reverb pedals I've tried. I'm pretty sure it is because it is made to handle the higher levels than it would get from the loop vs instrument levels. I got those specs from Strymon. I know my AnalogMan buffer works better than others because it can run on 18 volts and thus has more headroom. Some effects were not designed to see higher than instrument levels.
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