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Post by oloboy on Nov 12, 2014 18:22:43 GMT -7
Hello, First time poster here!
I am considering these two amps and would appreciate any feedback from players that have used both. I thought I was set on these two opinions until I saw that Dr Z is considering a rerelease of the Jaz 20/40. I have never heard one but if that is more appropriate, i'll throw it in the running.
I'm looking for a Fender voiced amp to play solo and jam with friends in our 15'x30' room. E drums, bass, two guitars. Often louder than it needs to be but the room is small and I play solo 90% of the time. I like blackface/Dumble cleans but tweed grit. I was hoping to find an amp that can loosely cover both grounds. I was considering Two Rock Studio Pro and Carr Rambler but they are very pricey and I'm not crazy about the dirt they do have on board. Whatever head I get, I'd like to run it through my Dr Z 1x12" convertible cab. It is loaded with a G12H30 right now but that could be changed.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
J
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 12, 2014 22:27:54 GMT -7
Welcome to the group! Do you have a way to play any of these, or do you have to go from clips and our hearsay? I ask because the Therapy has a dynamic that is pretty difficult to capture on a recording or describe in words. Playing it usually settles the question.
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Post by oloboy on Nov 12, 2014 22:53:27 GMT -7
Thank you. I have been enjoying this site for some time. Great information here with a very friendly atmosphere.
I'm going on advice and video clips. Wish I was not but does not seem like I could go too wrong either way.
AST seems very warm, rich and full but I worry about the headroom and flexibility.
Therapy seems very flexible but I wonder about the volume and how close I can get to blackface/Dumble when clean with the mids rolled back.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Nov 13, 2014 2:39:48 GMT -7
Thank you. I have been enjoying this site for some time. Great information here with a very friendly atmosphere. I'm going on advice and video clips. Wish I was not but does not seem like I could go too wrong either way. AST seems very warm, rich and full but I worry about the headroom and flexibility. Therapy seems very flexible but I wonder about the volume and how close I can get to blackface/Dumble when clean with the mids rolled back. Welcome to the forum! Good place to start asking questions - Therapy section When you say you're "worried about the volume" - in what way? Worried it will be too loud? Too quiet? The Therapy has the best MV on any amp I've played, so I can go from a loud gig right down to practice-room-at-home levels, and lose none of the T Tone at all. The secret sauce in the Therapy is the dynamic between the MV and the V - crank one, and you've got raunchy rock, singing sustain, feedback, harmonics all night long - basically the best amp overdrive sound I could ever want or even imagine. On the other hand, crank the MV, and bring in the V slowly, and you'll get big, BIG, harmonically rich cleans that will certainly give Mr Dumble a run for his money. Then you can get them both balanced, on the edge, and just hold your breath for the right hand dynamics - just WOW! If you have a heavy right hand, you might want to change that asap! Think Robben Ford at his very best, through his Dumble, and you're about there. I've used this amp for Foo Fighters / QOTSA stuff; Led Zep stuff; smooth blues stuff; warm jazzy stuff; jangly Tom Petty stuff; old school Rolling Stones stuff...... and the only pedal I've used is an EP for some solo boost, and even then, that's not absolutely necessary...... Use your right hand, and your Guitar Volume, and you can cover just about anything! A VERY versatile amp indeed! benttop (Steve) said it perfectly - see if you can try one out. Once you FEEL this amp, the decision is usually made, especially given what you're looking for...... Good luck!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 7:27:29 GMT -7
While I can't comment directly on the Therapy comparison, as I've never played one, the AST has been my main amp for 4 or so years now. I once owned it and a Z28 at the same time, and found them to be very similar in tone. The AST has a lovely onboard tube reverb and tremolo as well. There is not a ton of headroom on the AST, but it will clean up really nicely with your guitar volume. I ended up selling the Z28, as I'm a little space challenged, and it made more sense to have amps that were not so similar to each other.
Many folks around here have commented that the Therapy covers a lot of the ground the Z28 does, but does more. I'd imagine it's a fair amount louder than the AST, but that can likely be tamed with the MV. The AST is loud, but not excessively so, and their night light attenuator brings it down to basement/whisper volumes rather effectively.
Good luck in your search!
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Post by oloboy on Nov 13, 2014 8:18:39 GMT -7
Thanks for the replys. It helps.
Regarding volume, I'm concerned of it being too loud to hit the sweet spot. I have always wanted a Z but the "Z watt" reputation of the low watt Maz18, Ghia, etc have made me hesitant. The Therapy's class AB and MV seems more fitting for me. I currently have a Mesa TA-15. It's 15 watt class A setting and 25 watt class AB settings are nice volume levels for my situation. I like the amp but find myself on the Fender voiced channel 90% of the time. So, I want to get an amp dedicated to that tone and then use the TA-15 for it's Vox and Marshall channels (until I start desiring a Maz8!). The Therapy sounds perfect but the 35 watt aspects scares me a bit. When I move too much air in our space, everything starts to shake. Drywall dust falls from the light fixtures, glass panes rattle, bobbleheads bobble, etc. I did have a friends AC30 in here and it was a bit much but not too much.
The AST head does sound like a great amp. I worry about the lack of headroom and its versatility. The tone I hear on clips is fantastic but it would be great to get more than that tweed reed out of it.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Nov 13, 2014 11:43:33 GMT -7
Man, if you found an AC30 just about acceptable, you will have NO PROBS with the Therapy - that MV REALLY works! and you have spotted the only thing the Therapy won't excel at - Vox-like tones, and a Maz8 will surely fill that gap! You're covered (unless you want MORE AC30 PLUS tones, and get a Z Wreck, but that doesn't have an MV and is LOUD LOUD LOUD!) ps - this may be a spoiler, and not your thing, but you can add a Brake Lite into the mix - it doesn't kill the mojo on the Therapy, at least on one or two clicks, and will take another few dB out of the equation, if you want bedroom levels? Just a thought.......
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 13, 2014 13:15:10 GMT -7
ps - this may be a spoiler, and not your thing, but you can add a Brake Lite into the mix - it doesn't kill the mojo on the Therapy, at least on one or two clicks, and will take another few dB out of the equation, if you want bedroom levels? Just a thought....... I have my Airbrake on 4 clicks for playing at home and the Therapy sounds fabulous.
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Nov 13, 2014 14:40:54 GMT -7
Where are you located? Maybe you can try out a ZBros amp. Anywhere near S.E. Michigan?
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Nov 13, 2014 16:30:41 GMT -7
Thank you. I have been enjoying this site for some time. Great information here with a very friendly atmosphere. I'm going on advice and video clips. Wish I was not but does not seem like I could go too wrong either way. AST seems very warm, rich and full but I worry about the headroom and flexibility. Therapy seems very flexible but I wonder about the volume and how close I can get to blackface/Dumble when clean with the mids rolled back. I let my AST go for a v1 JAZ 20/40. The AST is a very fine amp for sure, but I found its palette kinda of limited and with my Les Paul had less headroom than other dual 6V6 amps I've had: significantly less headroom than both my old Carr Sportsman 1x12 and Z-28/1x12 Greenback. The cleans are quite beautiful though if you can deal with the headroom, and the reverb and tremolo are excellent. I'm confident I made the right call in replacing my AST with a JAZ though I do miss the 20lb form factor (my JAZ 2x10 is ~ 60lbs!!) and found the AST tremolo more in my wheelhouse (rounder pulse and a bit more compression at the peak). The reverbs are totally comparable and that is to say AWESOME. I can run my Flint into the JAZ to get a rounder tremolo pulse if I want to as well. Another reason I prefer the JAZ (and it seems Dr. Zs in general) is that there's more clarity regardless of how far broken up the amp is. I play overdriven with my fingers often and found the soft and gooey feel of the Swart kind of covered things up for me at times. I totally see how folks would love that but Dr. Z amps have trained me well! Finally, the single tone knob had me adding an EQ pedal to my board with the AST. I needed more control over mids as the the compact cab could get into boxy town depending on guitar and room. The MAZ front end of the JAZ has a huge range. Interestingly enough, I've never wished for more EQ control with the Ghia...) I see the choice between AST and JAZ a pretty clear cut one (syrupy cleans (that disappear early) and greasy swamp vs. cleans anywhere along the tweed and BF spectrum and more clarity in breakup). Comparing the JAZ to a Carr Sportsman 1x12 is not so clear cut ...
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Post by oloboy on Nov 13, 2014 19:49:43 GMT -7
Ok, I'm convinced! Z it is!
Now, can some one tell me how a Therapy compares to the Jaz? I have a Flint for reverb and tremolo but could sell it to help fund a Jaz if I go that way.
Unfortunately, I'm far from Michigan. I'm in Seattle.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 13, 2014 21:02:30 GMT -7
Ok, I'm convinced! Z it is! Now, can some one tell me how a Therapy compares to the Jaz? I have a Flint for reverb and tremolo but could sell it to help fund a Jaz if I go that way. Unfortunately, I'm far from Michigan. I'm in Seattle. Well hello neighbor. I'm in Renton myself. Going out of town for a spell shortly, but if you haven't decided by early December, give a shout - we could set up a demo of my Therapy.
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Post by oloboy on Nov 13, 2014 22:29:45 GMT -7
Thank you, Steve. That would be really helpful. I feel a bit blind in this purchase. It would be great to get a taste of the amp before taking the plunge. It is obviously a nice piece of equipment. You just never know if it is the one for you until you try it out.
Jeff
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Post by jesslm02 on Nov 14, 2014 7:06:53 GMT -7
The Therapy and the JAZ are quite a bit different. For starters, you 6L6 vs 6V6. As far as cleans go, too me the Therapy leans more toward the tweed side of things but has more control because of the full tone stack. The JAZ leans more towards the blackface side and speakers really have an impact on what you get out of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 7:44:46 GMT -7
Thank you. I have been enjoying this site for some time. Great information here with a very friendly atmosphere. I'm going on advice and video clips. Wish I was not but does not seem like I could go too wrong either way. AST seems very warm, rich and full but I worry about the headroom and flexibility. Therapy seems very flexible but I wonder about the volume and how close I can get to blackface/Dumble when clean with the mids rolled back. I let my AST go for a v1 JAZ 20/40. The AST is a very fine amp for sure, but I found its palette kinda of limited and with my Les Paul had less headroom than other dual 6V6 amps I've had: significantly less headroom than both my old Carr Sportsman 1x12 and Z-28/1x12 Greenback. The cleans are quite beautiful though if you can deal with the headroom, and the reverb and tremolo are excellent. I'm confident I made the right call in replacing my AST with a JAZ though I do miss the 20lb form factor (my JAZ 2x10 is ~ 60lbs!!) and found the AST tremolo more in my wheelhouse (rounder pulse and a bit more compression at the peak). The reverbs are totally comparable and that is to say AWESOME. I can run my Flint into the JAZ to get a rounder tremolo pulse if I want to as well. Another reason I prefer the JAZ (and it seems Dr. Zs in general) is that there's more clarity regardless of how far broken up the amp is. I play overdriven with my fingers often and found the soft and gooey feel of the Swart kind of covered things up for me at times. I totally see how folks would love that but Dr. Z amps have trained me well! Finally, the single tone knob had me adding an EQ pedal to my board with the AST. I needed more control over mids as the the compact cab could get into boxy town depending on guitar and room. The MAZ front end of the JAZ has a huge range. Interestingly enough, I've never wished for more EQ control with the Ghia...) I see the choice between AST and JAZ a pretty clear cut one (syrupy cleans (that disappear early) and greasy swamp vs. cleans anywhere along the tweed and BF spectrum and more clarity in breakup). Comparing the JAZ to a Carr Sportsman 1x12 is not so clear cut ... Thanks for the quality post, Ted. A couple observations/comments: It seems that the things you're ambivalent about on the AST (soft and gooey, swampy, single knob tone control) are the same things I really like. I wonder how much of that is due to pick vs. non pick technique. My right hand technique is terrible, so I'm using a pick 100% of the time. My other amp is a Ghia, and I find myself wishing for a little more EQ control, especially with my strat. I don't have that problem on the AST. I've never had the opportunity to play a JAZ - I always imagined it as the dirty love child of an AST (or Z28) and the MAZ, and this discussion does nothing to change my assumption. I've got to get an hour on the JAZ some day. And maybe the Therapy, too.
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Nov 14, 2014 9:18:36 GMT -7
I let my AST go for a v1 JAZ 20/40. The AST is a very fine amp for sure, but I found its palette kinda of limited and with my Les Paul had less headroom than other dual 6V6 amps I've had: significantly less headroom than both my old Carr Sportsman 1x12 and Z-28/1x12 Greenback. The cleans are quite beautiful though if you can deal with the headroom, and the reverb and tremolo are excellent. I'm confident I made the right call in replacing my AST with a JAZ though I do miss the 20lb form factor (my JAZ 2x10 is ~ 60lbs!!) and found the AST tremolo more in my wheelhouse (rounder pulse and a bit more compression at the peak). The reverbs are totally comparable and that is to say AWESOME. I can run my Flint into the JAZ to get a rounder tremolo pulse if I want to as well. Another reason I prefer the JAZ (and it seems Dr. Zs in general) is that there's more clarity regardless of how far broken up the amp is. I play overdriven with my fingers often and found the soft and gooey feel of the Swart kind of covered things up for me at times. I totally see how folks would love that but Dr. Z amps have trained me well! Finally, the single tone knob had me adding an EQ pedal to my board with the AST. I needed more control over mids as the the compact cab could get into boxy town depending on guitar and room. The MAZ front end of the JAZ has a huge range. Interestingly enough, I've never wished for more EQ control with the Ghia...) I see the choice between AST and JAZ a pretty clear cut one (syrupy cleans (that disappear early) and greasy swamp vs. cleans anywhere along the tweed and BF spectrum and more clarity in breakup). Comparing the JAZ to a Carr Sportsman 1x12 is not so clear cut ... Thanks for the quality post, Ted. A couple observations/comments: It seems that the things you're ambivalent about on the AST (soft and gooey, swampy, single knob tone control) are the same things I really like. I wonder how much of that is due to pick vs. non pick technique. My right hand technique is terrible, so I'm using a pick 100% of the time. My other amp is a Ghia, and I find myself wishing for a little more EQ control, especially with my strat. I don't have that problem on the AST. I've never had the opportunity to play a JAZ - I always imagined it as the dirty love child of an AST (or Z28) and the MAZ, and this discussion does nothing to change my assumption. I've got to get an hour on the JAZ some day. And maybe the Therapy, too. Thx for kudos man! You make perfect counterpoints here. I don't currently own a Strat but even my Tele as the lowest output git I've got has fairly hot pups (N = high 7s and bridge = mid 8s). It makes me wonder about the relationship between signal strength and EQ performance. Plus, I really do think that the right hand technique plays a big role in how well the genius of the Swart's feel works with the player. I can think of a number of times when I really dug the AST with the Tele (volume rolled back a bit) and a pick doing more strumming work. Just to reiterate, I think the Swart line and the AST and STR Tweed in particular are STELLAR amps and deserve the respect they garner. Plus, Mike Swart and crew have customer service on par with Team Z. Another way for me to look at it is that if the Swart AST as a benchmark for it's style of amp doesn't totally do it for me, then that kind of amp isn't my thing. Some folks don't like how articulate Z amps are but apparently it's a great tool for my approach to technique.
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Post by oloboy on Nov 14, 2014 11:44:07 GMT -7
Well, mention of the Carr Sportsman has gummed up the works. That sounds like a nice, manageable wattage BF to tweed amp. At least I'm narrowed down to only two choices now!
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Nov 14, 2014 13:05:22 GMT -7
Well, mention of the Carr Sportsman has gummed up the works. That sounds like a nice, manageable wattage BF to tweed amp. At least I'm narrowed down to only two choices now! LOL! The Sporty is indeed a helluva amp. The JAZ and Z-28 can each cover much of the Sporty's abilities, but you can't beat the package (i.e. compact combo, lightweight pine cab, built-in attenuation). The JAZ and Z-28 can also do things the Sporty can't but it would be a fair fight IMO. At the risk of trumpeting a non-Z amp too much: search on youtube for Bill Frisell playing 'Surfer Girl'. His tone with the Sportsman is just gorgeous and I'm glad I can match it with the JAZ
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Nov 14, 2014 13:09:18 GMT -7
you know, I thought of one more thing regarding this post: My AST was a 2007. I learned that the earlier ones used a lower value on the bias resistor resulting in a 'hotter' bias. Later ones biased a bit cooler for more headroom. Some folks mod their newer ASTs to the earlier spec and vice versa. If your AST was newer than 2007 then you could be hearing and feeling that difference in bias.
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Post by harry on Nov 14, 2014 14:24:01 GMT -7
I have an AST MKII 2x10 combo and really love it. I agree with the comments about it being sticky, gooey, swampy. The master volume really works well. I put 6L6's in for tighter, cleaner headroom but it does get gritty fast. Certainly darker than my Z's and not as muscular sounding. Doesn't touch the cleans of my EZG and not as loud as my Maz 18 NR. It has a place in my line up because it is different from my Z's and was what I was looking for; it has that snotty, tweed thing going on plus a different reverb sound and killer tremolo. The cleans are beautiful and thick but break up early. If I need BF clean I have the EZG, a Maz 18 and 38 for all around stuff and the Antidote for when I feel like rocking it like a Pagan Warlord on payday. Haven't played a Therapy yet but I would imagine it is super versatile and articulate like all Z's. I would assume it to be more versatile than the AST and definitely louder if needed though the AST can still pump some wattage into your cottage...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 18:26:36 GMT -7
you know, I thought of one more thing regarding this post: My AST was a 2007. I learned that the earlier ones used a lower value on the bias resistor resulting in a 'hotter' bias. Later ones biased a bit cooler for more headroom. Some folks mod their newer ASTs to the earlier spec and vice versa. If your AST was newer than 2007 then you could be hearing and feeling that difference in bias. Mine's a 2007 as well. #306. Aside from a bunch of NOS glass, it's stock (well, with the exception of the nightlight panel). I love that amp. Interesting thought on the EQ performance vs. hot/not pickups. My Strat has low-ish output pickups (Klein S-7 set). I can get it to sound great with the AST on all pickup settings, but need to roll the tone knob back a fair amount. With the Ghia, I can get the neck, middle and in between settings to sound good, but I've yet to get the bridge pickup to sound good, at least to my ears. It's probably me, as I've seen boatloads of videos of guys making it work. I think you're on to something, though. I love the sounds I get from the Ghia with both my humbucker guitars, and both my p90 guitars. I'm ok with my tele (hotter bridge pickup), but less so with the Strat. Frankly, it's not that big of a deal. 6 electrics and 2 amps, and of the 12 possible combinations, there's one I don't *love*. Boo hoo. #firstworldproblems, amirite?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Dec 9, 2014 20:49:32 GMT -7
Well Jeff and I put Charlene through the paces tonight. She was giving pretty good therapy tonight. I hope it answered all of your questions, Jeff.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Dec 10, 2014 12:57:12 GMT -7
Well Jeff and I put Charlene through the paces tonight. She was giving pretty good therapy tonight. I hope it answered all of your questions, Jeff. Now there are typical THERAPY faces!! Works like that on me EVERY time!
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Post by oloboy on Dec 11, 2014 12:39:27 GMT -7
That amp is very cool indeed. Almost as cool at Steve letting me come over to check it out!
What really jumped out at me was the controllable volume, high end that was not too bright and the way the notes seemed to leap out of the speaker. It has a push to it. We then plugged into his Remedy and that push became a shove. Powerful.
Thanks again Steve!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Dec 11, 2014 14:14:02 GMT -7
No bother - it's always nice to meet someone else who is involved in the tone quest.
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