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Post by Maddog on Oct 11, 2014 17:31:35 GMT -7
Telefunken GZ 34, Matched pair RCA Black Plate 6L6 GC's, and a nice pair of NOS RCA 7025's (low noise 12AX7A's)....
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 11, 2014 19:11:27 GMT -7
Oh yeah!
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Post by "Z" Steve on Oct 11, 2014 19:58:27 GMT -7
HAH! When first looked at this pic it reminded of those "family" decals you see on the back window of a car - 2 adults, 3 kids, 2 pets. I think that could be the next Z swag item - the Tube Family.
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Post by nocasterman on Oct 12, 2014 5:52:32 GMT -7
WOW!! Can't wait to hear your report on those tubes Lee.
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Post by DRZ on Oct 12, 2014 7:25:48 GMT -7
HAH! When first looked at this pic it reminded of those "family" decals you see on the back window of a car - 2 adults, 3 kids, 2 pets. I think that could be the next Z swag item - the Tube Family. I love that, nice observation Steve.
Also Maddog that is a great looking set of NOS tubes. They are very rare, and their cost in todays market is close to half the list price of the Therapy.
DR.Z
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Post by Maddog on Oct 12, 2014 7:41:56 GMT -7
HAH! When first looked at this pic it reminded of those "family" decals you see on the back window of a car - 2 adults, 3 kids, 2 pets. I think that could be the next Z swag item - the Tube Family. I love that, nice observation Steve.
Also Maddog that is a great looking set of NOS tubes. They are very rare, and their cost in todays market is close to half the list price of the Therapy.
DR.Z
Yeah Doc, I am really, really LOVING the Therapy. I was just commenting to MarkT about how organic the attack of the Therapy is. I am so used to playing these old seasoned tweed amps and I thought it impossible to find that sweet attack in a new amp....God knows I've tried.
But this one's got it! The Therapy is right in there with my sweet old Tweeds and has certainly found its place among them. I never thought I'd say THAT about any new amp. I dearly LOVE this amp, and will report when I get the vintage glass installed and biased.... Recommendations on bias settings?
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Post by doctorice on Oct 12, 2014 7:46:45 GMT -7
That's darn near amp porn, Lee!
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Post by DRZ on Oct 12, 2014 7:53:10 GMT -7
Lee the Therapy is self biased, so plug-n-play. Z
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Post by Maddog on Oct 12, 2014 8:03:12 GMT -7
Lee the Therapy is self biased, so plug-n-play. Z Thanks Doc!
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Post by Frankie Starr on Oct 12, 2014 18:13:44 GMT -7
Obviously some good old Classic glass man ! I. Have tinkered a lot, I mean a real lot with hundreds of tubes new, NOS British.......they are great , and they seem to last a lifetime ! But when I try to put the fancy stuff in the Z amps, I almost always go back to his original choice.......I'm pretty sure he designs the amps to what tubes are readily available. But geeezzzz, you can never have enough old RCA and such ! Please let us know what your opinions are after comparing. !
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Post by guiltrip on Oct 13, 2014 3:09:46 GMT -7
RCA Blackplates and NOS Mullard Rectifier tube didn't do it. Pretty much back to original with a Chinese Sino 5AR4 was the ticket for me.
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Post by Frankie Starr on Oct 13, 2014 8:01:38 GMT -7
One thing about the telefunken 's are they are a real clear, balanced sounding tubes.... If you looking for sweet cleans, this is IMO the holy grail ! So that might tame down some of the gain since it's pretty heavy. On the Therapy . ....I bet they would sound good in a Monza as well. A lot of these things we talk about I MO is the right combo. It's all good stuff,but when you get the right match, then you really find some sweet tones ! Hope your well Lee, it's been a while Bro !
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Post by Sean on Oct 13, 2014 12:56:31 GMT -7
Dang Lee. I gotta drive south and hear those. Or can't you just point that cab out the NW window and crank it??
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Post by Dannydny on Oct 13, 2014 13:22:23 GMT -7
That's money right there!
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Oct 14, 2014 2:01:47 GMT -7
Unknown world, this for me....... I have never owned or even seen a NOS valve. The odd thing for me is, I buy my Z amps based on exactly how they sound when I try them and I certainly don't trust my ears to "improve" them. If I thought they needed improving, I wouldn't buy them in the first place, if you see what I mean?
The way I look at it is, the Doc has to design his amps based on the valves / tubes available, new, today, so that means I can easily get replacements as needed, and the amp will sound the same. It also means that the design is optimised for those tubes, so changing them alters the tone, ergo, see the point above. So, assuming I want the exact tone of the amp as the Doc built it, and I can find NOS tubes to fulfil that (a big ask, if I read correctly), why would I want NOS tubes ........ the fact that they tend to last a lifetime? Is that the main reason? And given the cost of NOS glass, is there a real cost benefit going this route, or is just as cost effective to change new tubes every once in a while?
(I ask this from genuine interest, as I've never has a tube blow on me in any of my Z amps....... and they have all remained stock, with stock replacement power tubes as needed)
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Post by Maddog on Oct 14, 2014 5:13:09 GMT -7
^^^^^ In most cases, Pete, they sound a bit more organic (rounder/more colorful), go into distortion a little smoother, and saturate more predictably. Basically, they sound more full and wholesome, and they will last longer. Is the difference a big one? No! Can you discern the difference in a live band situation? Probably not.
Can you tell the difference in a studio A/B'ing new vs NOS? Definitely.
There's only so much a builder can accommodate for with today's production tubes. You're correct in your thoughts: if we never heard NOS tubes, we'd never miss 'em, especially with Doc's extremely well-engineered amps. It's just one more notch in the quest for "that tone!"
And also Pete, you may be right. I might pull the tubes and re-install the production tubes immediately after I install and test. I'll report back later this week....
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Oct 14, 2014 6:47:11 GMT -7
Great response Lee, thanks!
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Post by Frankie Starr on Oct 14, 2014 13:55:36 GMT -7
Dang you Lee !! Ya got my wheels turning (not always a good thing) and I put in a set of NOS Phillips 7581's.....It's a 6L6 style with a little higher wattage, (maybe someone else can elaborate). The Therapy always had a ton of grind, so these helped clear things up , just a little. But WOW WOW WoW !!!! It was like magic man. Louder, clearer and BALANCED. That's one of the things I miss in the new (todays) tubes, they aren't balanced. If ya heard them side by side you would hear what I mean.....I think they 7581's are staying....which is a first in any Z amp for me. Oh, I guess I never mentioned, mine is a blackout baby !!! And it is singing.....took a little time to get to know it, and now it's all that and a bag of chips....
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Post by Frankie Starr on Oct 14, 2014 15:27:16 GMT -7
Not to get of topic but i bet the 7581's would rule in the EZG's !! It's one tube ya don't hear about to often....
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Post by drv on Oct 17, 2014 5:56:11 GMT -7
Hi lee .. Nice tubes
If you get a chance try a raytheon black plate 12ax7 in V1.
My favorite combination of preamp tubes is V1 - Raytheon 12ax7 PI - Mullard 12at7 And if there is a 3rd of 4th preamp tube, I use a RCA 7025.
The Raytheon and Mullard were made for each other, individually superb tubes. But the combination of these two really is glorious.
Anyway, now you have me jonsing for this amp .. I need some therapy :-P
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Post by Maddog on Oct 18, 2014 18:40:05 GMT -7
OK Brothers....Let me save you some money..... I put the new (OLD) tubes in the Therapy and fired her up. The change was just as I expected: A nice, subtle (key word "subtle") warmness added to the mids. And maybe the highs were a little smoother. The bass was still nice with my strat and a tad woofy with humbuggies. So, I got to thinking about this, and being a tweed kinda guy and this being a tweed kinda amp, I thought, "what would Leo do?" So I went on the hunt for a 12AY7 to stick in V1. Couldn't readily find one, but in the process, I stumbled across a sleeve of 5 RCA 5751's. So I popped one of those babies in V1, and totally LOVE the change.
My biggest issue with the Therapy was having to keep the Volume control below "9" o'clock with humbuckers if I wanted to play clean. I play an SG with BurstBuckers I & II, a Collings with Throbaks, and another Collings with TV Jones Filtertrons. All of these are louder than most Humbuckers and that accentuated the problem. Using a lower powered preamp tube (5751, 12AY7, etc) allows for more clean headroom. I now have to get the "V" well-over 11:00 to get into the slightest overdrive/distortion. I really, really, really like this sound.
The Therapy was already quite possibly becoming my favorite amp. With these new changes, I think it might just get there very soon....
So, is all that expensive glass really needed? No, I don't think so. Am I gonna pull it out and save it for some future amp???.....no chance (I'm over 60). It's highly doubtful there will be a better amp designed and built in my guitar-playing lifetime, if ever. I would NOT recommend re-tubing with NOS tubes unless you have 'em languishing around or you gots some serious coin going stale in the cookie jar. The tonal enhancement is not nearly as impressive as I expected. Doc already gave us as much bang for the buck as he could squeeze out of a booteek amp! Hard to improve perfection!
I WOULD tho greatly recommend subbing in a lower power V1 tube if you're finding your buckers hard to keep out of the mud....This amp is a KILLER now! Maybe you oughtta git yerself a 5751 and try the "Maddog Mod!"
Here ya go...PURE PORN:
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Post by Dannydny on Oct 19, 2014 1:55:22 GMT -7
OK Brothers....Let me save you some money..... I put the new (OLD) tubes in the Therapy and fired her up. The change was just as I expected: A nice, subtle (key word "subtle") warmness added to the mids. And maybe the highs were a little smoother. The bass was still nice with my strat and a tad woofy with humbuggies. So, I got to thinking about this, and being a tweed kinda guy and this being a tweed kinda amp, I thought, "what would Leo do?" So I went on the hunt for a 12AY7 to stick in V1. Couldn't readily find one, but in the process, I stumbled across a sleeve of 5 RCA 5751's. So I popped one of those babies in V1, and totally LOVE the change.
My biggest issue with the Therapy was having to keep the Volume control below "9" o'clock with humbuckers if I wanted to play clean. I play an SG with BurstBuckers I & II, a Collings with Throbaks, and another Collings with TV Jones Filtertrons. All of these are louder than most Humbuckers and that accentuated the problem. Using a lower powered preamp tube (5751, 12AY7, etc) allows for more clean headroom. I now have to get the "V" well-over 11:00 to get into the slightest overdrive/distortion. I really, really, really like this sound.
The Therapy was already quite possibly becoming my favorite amp. With these new changes, I think it might just get there very soon....
So, is all that expensive glass really needed? No, I don't think so. Am I gonna pull it out and save it for some future amp???.....no chance (I'm over 60). It's highly doubtful there will be a better amp designed and built in my guitar-playing lifetime, if ever. I would NOT recommend re-tubing with NOS tubes unless you have 'em languishing around or you gots some serious coin going stale in the cookie jar. The tonal enhancement is not nearly as impressive as I expected. Doc already gave us as much bang for the buck as he could squeeze out of a booteek amp! Hard to improve perfection!
I WOULD tho greatly recommend subbing in a lower power V1 tube if you're finding your buckers hard to keep out of the mud....This amp is a KILLER now! Maybe you oughtta git yerself a 5751 and try the "Maddog Mod!"
Here ya go...PURE PORN:
Lee... you are a hoot brother! You know what your looking for tone wise and I have to give major creed for trying out all that tube swapping. So I have to ask you how do you compare the difference between the Z Wreck combo you had and the Therapy? Would you consider the Therapy more of a Rock N Roll amp with the MV? I know the Wreck can OD very nicely with a pedal platform but the cleans just luscious. Just curious to your opinion because I know you have run both thru it's paces? Cheers, Danny
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Oct 19, 2014 1:59:14 GMT -7
Nice one Lee! ...... but as I am looking for drive and gain from this amp, I'm leaving mine well alone! Great experiment and report though........!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 19, 2014 7:16:08 GMT -7
It's highly doubtful there will be a better amp designed and built in my guitar-playing lifetime, if ever.
Love that line right there...
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Post by doctorice on Oct 19, 2014 8:16:10 GMT -7
Splendid report, Lee. Thanks for saving me some $$
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Post by brayks on Oct 19, 2014 9:32:22 GMT -7
Now that why I love you brother!
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Post by Maddog on Oct 19, 2014 10:24:16 GMT -7
So I have to ask you how do you compare the difference between the Z Wreck combo you had and the Therapy? Would you consider the Therapy more of a Rock N Roll amp with the MV? I know the Wreck can OD very nicely with a pedal platform but the cleans just luscious. That's a complicated question, Danny. The way I view the Therapy and the Z-Wreck is seeing them as highly tweakable versions of Tweeds and AC-type amps, respectively. I would NOT consider the Therapy more of a R&R amp than the Wreck. I played the Wreck at plenty of R&R gigs and jams to respect its ability to totally crush Marshall and Fender R&R machines on the other side of the drummer. The Wreck has its own tonal prowess within the cut control; the Therapy's is within the V/MV set-up.
There's an amplifier "sound" in my head I always desire. I tweak the controls, tubes, and speakers until I get it. I can get it with the Wreck, and I can get it with the Therapy. IMHO, the Wreck just adds a bit more top-end sparkle and generalized girth; the Therapy has a bit warmer, more refined midrange (splitting hairs here, guys....VERY subtle differences). The Therapy's MV does help playing in low-volume situations, but I never had a problem with that since the Wreck has such a pleasing color and roundness to the tone that you can literally get away playing it louder (than most other amps) in small venues without bothering "chat"-ers.
But seriously, again, we're down to splitting hairs here. I could live with either amp as my sole valve-powered buddy. They're both fantastic amps. They both have great inherent natural overdrive tones, and they both have bodacious cleans. Unlike some of our click and play brethren here who say these amps are fast to "dial-in," I find the need to really spend time and toil in "dialing-in" either of these amps to get to "That Special Spot." Maybe it's just me, I am quite anal, but I do indeed love the fact that each of these two amps has a million tones within and "that one sound" I demand is there in both amps in spades. Plus, I totally enjoy the quest....
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Post by Dannydny on Oct 19, 2014 18:44:37 GMT -7
So I have to ask you how do you compare the difference between the Z Wreck combo you had and the Therapy? Would you consider the Therapy more of a Rock N Roll amp with the MV? I know the Wreck can OD very nicely with a pedal platform but the cleans just luscious. That's a complicated question, Danny. The way I view the Therapy and the Z-Wreck is seeing them as highly tweakable versions of Tweeds and AC-type amps, respectively. I would NOT consider the Therapy more of a R&R amp than the Wreck. I played the Wreck at plenty of R&R gigs and jams to respect its ability to totally crush Marshall and Fender R&R machines on the other side of the drummer. The Wreck has its own tonal prowess within the cut control; the Therapy's is within the V/MV set-up.
There's an amplifier "sound" in my head I always desire. I tweak the controls, tubes, and speakers until I get it. I can get it with the Wreck, and I can get it with the Therapy. IMHO, the Wreck just adds a bit more top-end sparkle and generalized girth; the Therapy has a bit warmer, more refined midrange (splitting hairs here, guys....VERY subtle differences). The Therapy's MV does help playing in low-volume situations, but I never had a problem with that since the Wreck has such a pleasing color and roundness to the tone that you can literally get away playing it louder (than most other amps) in small venues without bothering "chat"-ers.
But seriously, again, we're down to splitting hairs here. I could live with either amp as my sole valve-powered buddy. They're both fantastic amps. They both have great inherent natural overdrive tones, and they both have bodacious cleans. Unlike some of our click and play brethren here who say these amps are fast to "dial-in," I find the need to really spend time and toil in "dialing-in" either of these amps to get to "That Special Spot." Maybe it's just me, I am quite anal, but I do indeed love the fact that each of these two amps has a million tones within and "that one sound" I demand is there in both amps in spades. Plus, I totally enjoy the quest.... Hmmm... Well said Lee. Without even hearing a Therapy live I totally get what your saying... Thanks for taking the time to put that together... Sounds as though you have yourself a keeper... with all these amps that Doc has come out with over the last few years it's tough to keep up with everything! lol Thanks, Danny
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Post by simpleton on Oct 19, 2014 21:43:01 GMT -7
I like how Dr Z signed your amp personally and wrote you a little note. THAT IS WAY COOL !! Rock on my brother !
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Post by smolder on Oct 20, 2014 4:58:42 GMT -7
I'm a huge fan of tube rolling and the longevity of old stock. The difference is always more subtle than speaker swaps, but dialing in that 3% is to me, very gratifying.
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