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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 27, 2014 14:35:22 GMT -7
I have a well broken-in Cel Blue in my ghia combo and really am liking the tone for the most part. The only thing I am missing is a tight low end. The blue has enough lows and I haven't pushed it enough to cause it to flub out, but the lows are still loose.
I realize that nothing will sound like a blue except a blue but if I can get close and also get a tighter low end response then I think that would satisfy me. I have several in mind and was hoping some folks here had experience with them. I've read some comparisons on other forums and wanted opinions here as well.
Some I am considering: WGS Blackhawk 50, Scumnico, Weber Blue Dog (ceramic or alnico?).
I've considered the gold as well but it would be a plus if I could drop a few db of volume.
Any insight would be appreciated.
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Post by BradPaisleyFan (Pat) on Jul 27, 2014 15:26:29 GMT -7
I played a Mesa closed back 1-12 cab this weekend with my EZG. It had a c90 in it and it was KILLER! I ordered one! Check them out
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Post by texan2step on Jul 27, 2014 19:02:50 GMT -7
I have a Celestion and a Weber blue. Both of them are 15W and I can tell you the Weber has more flubby bass than the Celestion. It also is less efficient. Not sure how much but it's noticeably quieter. It really does sound very nice and I'm sure it would be better if it were a 50W. But the Gold is great too. I would say if you were looking to cut db's try out the Weber first in maybe 50W. I haven't tried Scumbacks so I can't say for them.
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Post by Jefferson on Jul 28, 2014 12:06:56 GMT -7
I think that the celestion creamback, although its ceramic, has a lot of qualities similar to a blue/gold. i actually think it is closer to the gold than the blue...
anyway, it has lush mids and sparkly highs but also has a punchy low end like a greenback. to me its what you would get if a gold and a greenback had a wild night together and 9 mos later out came a creamback...
its also rated at 97 db which is considerably more quiet than the gold or blue.
FWIW, i have a cab with a gold and one with a creamback and there just isnt a lot of difference except the volume.
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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 28, 2014 12:26:14 GMT -7
I think that the celestion creamback, although its ceramic, has a lot of qualities similar to a blue/gold. i actually think it is closer to the gold than the blue... anyway, it has lush mids and sparkly highs but also has a punchy low end like a greenback. to me its what you would get if a gold and a greenback had a wild night together and 9 mos later out came a creamback... its also rated at 97 db which is considerably more quiet than the gold or blue. FWIW, i have a cab with a gold and one with a creamback and there just isnt a lot of difference except the volume. Thats cool. The creamback has been on my list so I'll definitely need to give it a try. Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Proboards
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 15:29:20 GMT -7
Do you have a closed back cab? That will tighten up the bass.
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jul 28, 2014 15:51:45 GMT -7
I've got a creamback in a 1X12 convertible cabinet (Peavey with dimensions like the Z) The bass is tight on it either closed or open. It's the cabinet I keep at church and usually play my ghia through it. I've used it both open and closed. In the church setting I'm leaving it open, but I've gigged it closed. In both venues the speaker sounds rich. I was kinda hoping you would order the WGS Blackhawk and report out on it, as I'm really intrigued by the demo of that speaker on their site. LOL.In all honesty I'm pleased with the creamback, but I'd just like a little more from the highs. It's a never ending search we seen to pursue.
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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 28, 2014 15:59:00 GMT -7
I've read good things about the blackhawk. I'm on the lookout for a used one. If I can't find one used then I'll spring for new.
I do have a Z convertible cab that I could put the back on, but this particular setup is a 1x12 combo ghia. I should have a 1x10 cab with a gold show up any minute now - it will be my ultra portable grab-n-go.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 28, 2014 19:09:39 GMT -7
I tried quite a few Weber speakers before I got my Alnico Blues. None were anywhere close. The deal with Weber is the more power dissipation, the less top end. My 50 watt blue dogs sounded ok, but they sure didn't have that Alnico Blue sound. The ONLY speaker I've ever tried that came close is the Alnico Gold. Its top end is very similar, it's mids are exact, and its bottom end is much better than the Blue. Unfortunately, I've never had an opportunity to try the Creamback. I bet i'd like it.
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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 28, 2014 20:42:39 GMT -7
I tried quite a few Weber speakers before I got my Alnico Blues. None were anywhere close. The deal with Weber is the more power dissipation, the less top end. My 50 watt blue dogs sounded ok, but they sure didn't have that Alnico Blue sound. The ONLY speaker I've ever tried that came close is the Alnico Gold. Its top end is very similar, it's mids are exact, and its bottom end is much better than the Blue. Unfortunately, I've never had an opportunity to try the Creamback. I bet i'd like it. That's been my suspicion as well. And probably the reason why I don't have a Weber on the way right now. I think I'm going to give WGS and the creamback a chance on this one. If it doesn't work out I can always go for gold. But I really would like to have a lower db level than the blue/gold provide. Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Proboards
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 28, 2014 21:11:38 GMT -7
let us all know what you think.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 5:30:34 GMT -7
I'm probably the odd man out here, but what about the humble G12H30 (70th Anniversary)? My understanding was that it was created to be a ceramic alternative to the Blue (although with more Bass).
I agree that the Celestion Gold would be my first choice based on feel/response alone (alnico vs. ceramic); however, they're expensive and the G12H30's aren't. If you can find a used one to try for $80-100, then you can always flip it if you don't like it. I suppose it's the same for a used Gold albeit a bit more expensive ($200-240).
The Creamback suggestion would depend on the model (M or H?). The M would likely be the closest to what you want regarding mids, but the H will give the firmest bottom end of those two.
My disclaimer: I've mostly only played Celestions, so that's what I know best. I've had some WGS, Weber, Eminence, Jensen, Mojotone, etc.; however, the bulk of what I've used in a live setting are Celestions (Blue's, Gold's, G12H30's, Vintage 30's, Greenbacks (25W), G12-65 reissues, etc.). I have a G12H75 Creamback sitting around that I'm going to put into play soon.
After owning and using just about everything I've wanted, I still just like ceramic speakers AS MUCH if not more than alnico. There's just something about a 50 ounce ceramic magnets bass response that I love. Gold's are good, but there is something "missing" for me. I have yet to find an amp that I didn't like the sound of a G12H30 / Vintage 30 mix. For 1x12's, I'm happy with either the G12H30 or Vintage 30 (well broken in, of course). Hoping the Creamback H is a keeper though when I put it in my Z 1x12!
Just remember to balance your expectations when using something at home vs. live.....Vintage 30's don't sound great when sitting right in front of the speaker at home, but they sound amazing when cranked and in a band context. I used to buy what sounded best at home (when I only played at home), then realized it wasn't sitting well in the mix. Some of that is EQ'ing as you know, but it's still something to keep in mind when shopping around (ie. WGS is known for being "warmer" than Celestions, etc.).
Good luck with your tonal search. The Ghia is a tone machine, and will no doubt sound great with any of the one's you're looking at.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 5:52:23 GMT -7
I just re-read the part about lowering the DB if possible. The Creamback M65 would be a great starting point! The H75 is still 100 db, so it doesn't help in that regard. Just make sure you get the M. Not too many people state which magnet they're talking about when referring to the Creamback. I'm personally a fan of H magnets, so I like the distinction. Haha.
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jul 29, 2014 7:10:03 GMT -7
I just re-read the part about lowering the DB if possible. The Creamback M65 would be a great starting point! The H75 is still 100 db, so it doesn't help in that regard. Just make sure you get the M. Not too many people state which magnet they're talking about when referring to the Creamback. I'm personally a fan of H magnets, so I like the distinction. Haha. Good point about the M vs. H designation. I did put the M in my 1x12 for the lower db rating. It did cure the volume significantly allowing me to open the amp more in the church setting. Still not much past 10:30, but this traditional Catholic church is just warming to electric guitar. It's even hard for me to feel comfortable letting my hair down on some songs, but our director is really supportive and pushing it. He has a good point the music has to be appealing for younger worshipers. I digress, the M65 Creamback is very solid in the bass and has served me well in a church environment and small club with my Ghia. I still would love to give the WGS Blackhawk a run, but if it is warmer than it's probably not what I am after. If you do go that route, I'm interested to hear your impressions of the two.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2014 7:42:49 GMT -7
I'm probably the odd man out here, but what about the humble G12H30 (70th Anniversary)? My understanding was that it was created to be a ceramic alternative to the Blue (although with more Bass). I've read this before, I think even on the Celestion website. I think it's an absolute joke. (nothing against you fevzay) I think the H is nothing like a blue. They are opposite in most ways. The H has a huge 50oz. magnet...it makes for a LOT of firm bass. It also has a crispy high end. This bright high end and heavy low end make it an overall scooped speaker. The mids are recessed. Most of the time, I don't care for this speaker because of the recessed mids. Mids are where it's at for guitar speakers. (it's why people have been loving the blue for decades)
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Jul 29, 2014 8:01:37 GMT -7
^ Celestion said that the Vintage 30, not the G12H-30, was designed as a modern (at the time) ceramic alternative the Blue. (I believe the "30" refers to the 30th anniversary from the introduction of the Blue, as well. Of course, tons of people have misinterpreted that as its power handling, but I digress.)
I agree, the G12H-30 is quite different, but the Vintage 30 kind of does work well in most places where the Blue also works well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 8:28:24 GMT -7
Good thoughts John and Mark! No offense taken, and I appreciate the correction on the Vintage 30 / G12H30 (attempt at recreating the Blue). That does make a lot of sense (V30), so I suppose I got bad info on that back in the day. I thought I read that from one of the amp builder interviews in Dave Hunter's "The Guitar Amp Handbook." Maybe from Victor Mason...? Maybe it was just his opinion. I guess I'll throw another wrench/opinion out there to keep things fun. Seems to me that ALL guitar speakers live in the midrange. I'd agree that the V30 is upper mids (ala the Blue), but I don't completely agree with the G12H30 being totally scooped. I'd interpret what you're hearing as lower mids (I still hear upper freq. as well). It's all midrange....just depends on how solid you want the bottom end, IMO. The Blue has no bottom end. The V30 has some bottom end. The G12H30 has more bottom end. It's definitely true that the V30/H30 mix well. I usually play a 2x12 with one of each, and choose which speaker to mic based on the guitar I'm using. If I use a Strat, then I mic the G12H30. If I play my LP, then I mic the V30. Depends on the set and so forth as well, of course. Pardon the rabbit hole, OP!
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Post by Jefferson on Jul 29, 2014 9:07:15 GMT -7
I'm probably the odd man out here, but what about the humble G12H30 (70th Anniversary)? My understanding was that it was created to be a ceramic alternative to the Blue (although with more Bass). I've read this before, I think even on the Celestion website. I think it's an absolute joke. (nothing against you fevzay) I think the H is nothing like a blue. They are opposite in most ways. The H has a huge 50oz. magnet...it makes for a LOT of firm bass. It also has a crispy high end. This bright high end and heavy low end make it an overall scooped speaker. The mids are recessed. Most of the time, I don't care for this speaker because of the recessed mids. Mids are where it's at for guitar speakers. (it's why people have been loving the blue for decades) john is right about the G12H being a little scooped. thats why so many folks find that pairing it with the V30 is very satisfying...
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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 30, 2014 15:12:18 GMT -7
Blackhawk 50 on the way. Will report back.
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 2, 2014 0:45:29 GMT -7
I only got 15 minutes or so with the new blackhawk 50 but IMO it's a keeper. I don't want to go too in depth yet because I can tell it does need some break-in time. It still sounds nice right out of the box though and it is definitely in the celestion blue vein with a more substantial and tighter low end. I can't wait to hear how it sounds after some break-in time.
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Post by zpilot on Aug 19, 2014 1:20:04 GMT -7
^ Celestion said that the Vintage 30, not the G12H-30, was designed as a modern (at the time) ceramic alternative the Blue. (I believe the "30" refers to the 30th anniversary from the introduction of the Blue, as well. Of course, tons of people have misinterpreted that as its power handling, but I digress.) I agree, the G12H-30 is quite different, but the Vintage 30 kind of does work well in most places where the Blue also works well. The G12H30 is a 30 watt speaker. It is actually labeled G12H...30W. The Vintage 30 speakers I've owned were also labeled as 'power capacity-30 watts'. The Creamback 65 is rated at 65 watts. That seems to be the labeling system for most of the Celestions. I think these ratings are conservative. I used two Vintage 30's in a Twin Reverb (80 watts) for awhile that was mostly rented to local outdoor concert backlines. They ran that amp HARD and it never blew a speaker.
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 19, 2014 5:40:32 GMT -7
Yeah those Vin 30's are 60 watts. Much like that twin, I have two V30's in my Fender CS Dual Professional. Great big and loud Fender - never had any issues.
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Post by captainron (Ron) on May 23, 2018 8:05:32 GMT -7
I only got 15 minutes or so with the new blackhawk 50 but IMO it's a keeper. I don't want to go too in depth yet because I can tell it does need some break-in time. It still sounds nice right out of the box though and it is definitely in the celestion blue vein with a more substantial and tighter low end. I can't wait to hear how it sounds after some break-in time. Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Proboards Old thread but I'm wondering if you are still using/liking the blackhawk 50? Thanks, Ron.
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