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Post by John James on Apr 1, 2014 18:42:52 GMT -7
Was this ever a thought? Does a master volume really take away that much? I am curious is all. I just wish my wreck didnt have to be so loud but i will tell you that the ringing in my ears sounds great! lol
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Post by markT on Apr 1, 2014 19:20:19 GMT -7
^^^ Master volume-
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Post by John James on Apr 1, 2014 19:22:57 GMT -7
Disagree strongly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 20:00:51 GMT -7
I don't think the a master volume fits with the overall idea of the Wreck. Imho. Can't imagine that's being considered down the road either. I'm a big proponent of non mv designs My Mazerati doesn't have a MV and I wouldn't have it any other way. I like simple circuits and do belive they sound better. I've yet to try a MV offering from Dr Z. I do own a Mini Z with built in attenuator and it sounds great.
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Post by John James on Apr 1, 2014 20:08:36 GMT -7
Just an honest question. I honestly don't know the answers and I am intrigued by them. What does a post phase inverter or master volume take away?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 20:38:59 GMT -7
Just an honest question. I honestly don't know the answers and I am intrigued by them. What does a post phase inverter or master volume take away? Not knocking your question at all. Honestly couldn't tell you what it takes away. I personally like the sound of non-mv amps and the simplicity of it. My playing style changed when the Mazerati came into the picture. The volume pot on my guitar controls my clean to mean needs. Now I gravitate towards simpler designs. The less component's the signal travles through the better. Less resistance???
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Post by John James on Apr 1, 2014 20:42:50 GMT -7
so adding a master volume takes the amp from simple to difficult? I guess I dont follow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 20:47:30 GMT -7
so adding a master volume takes the amp from simple to difficult? I guess I dont follow. Not to operate but the internal circuitry is different. Less is more in terms of signal flow. My 'rati has two pots volume and tone, no reverb. Simple circuitry equals big natural sound. Imho, ymmv. The Z Wreck like it's cousin the Trainwreck isn't an amp you play coffee shop gigs with. It's made to blow people's hair back and put hair on your chest.
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Post by John James on Apr 1, 2014 21:06:10 GMT -7
well put. I just didnt know if there was a healthy median.
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Post by muZician on Apr 1, 2014 22:41:13 GMT -7
I think that the unique hair of the zwreck comes from a combined and perfectly matched saturation of the preamp section tubes with the power tubes. a mv (pre or post phase) would unbalance this match. It wouldn't make the amp difficult but just taking away its unique voice. probably you would still have the chance to dial in the correct zwreck tone but you would need to turn 2 knobs and play until you find the matching point...so better having one knob with the perfect saturation balance at all volumes.
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Post by BradPaisleyFan (Pat) on Apr 2, 2014 4:24:00 GMT -7
From what i have read, you could never put a master volume on the z wreck because it has a cut control. Lots of people have been begging for a stangray amp with a mv but same thing. I don't know the technicalities behind it, but I remember reading it.
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Post by stratovarius on Apr 2, 2014 5:17:23 GMT -7
It's all about overdriving the output section with this type of amp. The Brake Lite works well with the Z Wreck if you're not needing to take it down real low.
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Apr 2, 2014 15:13:05 GMT -7
My 96' SRZ-RH65 Has a Master Volume and it Kicks ASSSSZZZZZZ!, I think it has something to do with Cathode Biased amps, You see lots of Master Volumes On Fixed Biased mostly , But the Remedy, Monza, They offer Master Volumes and sound KILLER! , I think a Master or LPS, Would have been great on my Stangray, Same thing TOO LOUD! but GLORIOUS TONE
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Post by John James on Apr 8, 2020 20:17:10 GMT -7
Well this aged well LOL
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Post by perryr on Apr 8, 2020 23:22:48 GMT -7
Was this ever a thought? Does a master volume really take away that much? I am curious is all. I just wish my wreck didnt have to be so loud but i will tell you that the ringing in my ears sounds great! lol Dr Z and Ken Fischer collaborated to design an amp for Brad Paisley, an Extraordinary amp for an extraordinary Artist. Ken Fischer made 3 Trainwreck models, the Express, Liverpool and the Rocket. His amps are legendary, and the Rocket is the most coveted of the 3, I think the last one sold for $40k? The Dr Z Z Wreck is very similar to the Rocket, though a bit tighter, a bit more gain and of course designed to work with tubes that are available. The Z Wreck is an amazing amp, it is so right no matter where you put the knobs.. cleans, edge, full roar, doesnt matter, it kills at every setting. That is the product of 2 of the best guitar amp designers ever, it is THE Desert Island Amp. Ken Fischer never used a Master Volume on his Trainwreck Amps, The gain staging was designed to produce perfection at the speaker output jack, and a master volume control did not fit with that design objective... perfection, Zero compromise. That is not to say Ken never added master volumes to other amps, like Marshalls, in fact he had his own PPIMV circuits.. he just never used them on his Trainwrecks. I type all this to help provide understanding as to WHY Dr Z is probably incredibly reluctant to touch the design of the Z Wreck.. it is so right just the way it is. He added the half power switch as an option, but master volume on a Z Wreck... I think he answered that call with the Z Wreck Jr.
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Post by John James on Apr 10, 2020 15:06:50 GMT -7
I love the originally z wreck but don’t see it super applicable due to the volume. Attenuating it? No way.
Does the half power mod really make it that usable?
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Post by Rockerfeller on Apr 10, 2020 18:07:00 GMT -7
Doc said it was possible and that Ken might roll over in his grave! He also said you could keep both Comfort and Speed options. Will it ever be offered as an upgrade? Only Doc knows, but I'd be all over it. To me that is the best solution. I love the comfort and I love the speed setting and I'd have a very hard time choosing between the two.
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Post by bryan0418 on Apr 11, 2020 9:39:02 GMT -7
It would be handy to have the master volume on the big Z Wreck however I have found that the Fryette Power Station works great to tame the beast. Plus you get an effects loop for your delay and reverb effects.
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Post by carrjimi on Apr 12, 2020 3:49:05 GMT -7
I love the originally z wreck but don’t see it super applicable due to the volume. Attenuating it? No way. Does the half power mod really make it that usable? Absolutely. I use mine on half power pretty much all of the time.
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Post by frankie on May 9, 2020 16:52:55 GMT -7
I love the originally z wreck but don’t see it super applicable due to the volume. Attenuating it? No way. Does the half power mod really make it that usable? John, no disrespect intended, but you question attenuating the Z Wreck but seem less concerned with a master volume. I don't understand the objection to attenuating when in actuality you are getting the full output of the amp at the speaker out, and part of the design of the Z Wreck is the interaction with the power section being driven and compressed by the gain staging in the preamp. A PPIMV introduces a different interaction with the pre and power sections, and inevitably will change the sound to some effect (sometimes very little, sometimes a whole bunch depending on the circuit). Perhaps you have had some bad experiences with attenuators in the past (we all have), but the Air Brake and Brake Lite were designed by Ken Fischer specifically to work with this amp. Both work particularly well with 16 ohm loads and were designed around Trainwreck style circuits. I would suggest checking out Jason Hobbes youtube demos of the Z Wreck, he is attentuating the Z Wreck at bedroom volumes and getting the great sounds out of it. If you search brake lite and air brake demos on youtube, you will see many corroborating videos doing tests that show how transparent and effective they really are. I want to address the post phase inverter master volume, and explain how it works. It works particularly well on amps without negative feedback (like most of our amps), as it is in itself a sort of full signal negative feedback cycle. What happens with a PPIMV is the signal is introduced through the pot with an inverse of itself from the phase inverter. As you turn the pot down, you are canceling (phasing out) the signal out with a the inverse of the signal, which lowers the volume and eventually mutes the sound. The benefit of it being post phase inverter is that you get the gain stage of the phase inverter added into the equation, which allows for more distortion and compression, and a beefier signal as the amp is turned down. The down side of this though is if the amp isn't properly gain staged, you wind up with an overloaded phase inverter that doesn't sound good or clips unevenly. It's a balancing act of the whole preamp before it and how the phase inverter is balanced, the choice of resistance in the volume pot itself, and the tone shaping components around it. Further, since you are lowering the signal post phase inverter and feeding less of a signal into the power tubes, you change the interaction of the previous gain stages with the power tubes, thus change the sound and the feel. Attenuators allow for that full interaction, as you are lowering the volume by dissipating the signal into heat before the speakers. Which is why Doc and Ken preferred to preserve the interaction between the two sections without adding additional circuitry inside the amp itself.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on May 9, 2020 17:47:03 GMT -7
It would be handy to have the master volume on the big Z Wreck however I have found that the Fryette Power Station works great to tame the beast. Plus you get an effects loop for your delay and reverb effects. The Powerstation is expensive but man oh man does it do the job. Let’s you dime an amp then get the full tone at any volume. Love mine. Have run my Therapy dimed across the board - running EL34’s - just for giggles (cause that’s the way we used to run Marshall’s), and the Powerstation brought all the tone at any volume level - no “attenuator squash” since it’s basically re-amping the amp.
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Post by perryr on May 10, 2020 23:14:21 GMT -7
What happens with a PPIMV is the signal is introduced through the pot with an inverse of itself from the phase inverter. As you turn the pot down, you are canceling (phasing out) the signal out with a the inverse of the signal, which lowers the volume and eventually mutes the sound. Whoa, a full bandwidth cut, I never knew that, very cool!
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Post by dixiechicken on May 13, 2020 0:27:43 GMT -7
Dc here!
Since the Z-Wreck junior now have a master volume. Why not ask Doc himself about it. I guess he'd be happy to explain a little about it - in a general way at least.
Cheers: Dixiechicken!
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Post by BradPaisleyFan (Pat) on May 23, 2020 19:19:51 GMT -7
I love the originally z wreck but don’t see it super applicable due to the volume. Attenuating it? No way. Does the half power mod really make it that usable? Absolutely. I use mine on half power pretty much all of the time. Cut it any which way you want...the Z Wreck on half power is still louuuuud!!!
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Post by John James on Jan 8, 2022 12:27:36 GMT -7
I love the originally z wreck but don’t see it super applicable due to the volume. Attenuating it? No way. Does the half power mod really make it that usable? John, no disrespect intended, but you question attenuating the Z Wreck but seem less concerned with a master volume. I don't understand the objection to attenuating when in actuality you are getting the full output of the amp at the speaker out, and part of the design of the Z Wreck is the interaction with the power section being driven and compressed by the gain staging in the preamp. A PPIMV introduces a different interaction with the pre and power sections, and inevitably will change the sound to some effect (sometimes very little, sometimes a whole bunch depending on the circuit). Perhaps you have had some bad experiences with attenuators in the past (we all have), but the Air Brake and Brake Lite were designed by Ken Fischer specifically to work with this amp. Both work particularly well with 16 ohm loads and were designed around Trainwreck style circuits. I would suggest checking out Jason Hobbes youtube demos of the Z Wreck, he is attentuating the Z Wreck at bedroom volumes and getting the great sounds out of it. If you search brake lite and air brake demos on youtube, you will see many corroborating videos doing tests that show how transparent and effective they really are. I want to address the post phase inverter master volume, and explain how it works. It works particularly well on amps without negative feedback (like most of our amps), as it is in itself a sort of full signal negative feedback cycle. What happens with a PPIMV is the signal is introduced through the pot with an inverse of itself from the phase inverter. As you turn the pot down, you are canceling (phasing out) the signal out with a the inverse of the signal, which lowers the volume and eventually mutes the sound. The benefit of it being post phase inverter is that you get the gain stage of the phase inverter added into the equation, which allows for more distortion and compression, and a beefier signal as the amp is turned down. The down side of this though is if the amp isn't properly gain staged, you wind up with an overloaded phase inverter that doesn't sound good or clips unevenly. It's a balancing act of the whole preamp before it and how the phase inverter is balanced, the choice of resistance in the volume pot itself, and the tone shaping components around it. Further, since you are lowering the signal post phase inverter and feeding less of a signal into the power tubes, you change the interaction of the previous gain stages with the power tubes, thus change the sound and the feel. Attenuators allow for that full interaction, as you are lowering the volume by dissipating the signal into heat before the speakers. Which is why Doc and Ken preferred to preserve the interaction between the two sections without adding additional circuitry inside the amp itself. My issue with attenuation came from at the time, not ever having a good experience with an attenuator regardless of which ones I used. They all seemed to take a bit away from the amp and that’s why my reaction was adverse. On the other hand, I have played great sounding amps with a master volume. A few months ago, I got a Fryette powerstation and it’s everything I ever hoped an attenuator could be. Long story short, I have my 3rd Z Wreck on the way to give this a go AGAIN. Here goes nothing
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jan 8, 2022 16:03:40 GMT -7
The Powerstation is a game changer for any amp.
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Post by Don A on Jan 8, 2022 16:07:31 GMT -7
The Powerstation is a game changer for any amp. Kinda makes me wish I still had my Budda Twinmaster- though the Powerstation would cost more than the amp!
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jan 8, 2022 16:15:01 GMT -7
I wish I had had the PS back when I had my Bassman RI. At 45 watts it was too much amp but boy howdy did it sound great. I’ve always wanted to run my Z28 through a 4x10 — when I bought it (a head) I was really thinking about the 4x10 combo, but figured hauling would be too much.
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Post by gotmojo on Jan 9, 2022 21:00:00 GMT -7
Funny how this thread started so long ago, only to be resurrected! Also funny that my name, too, is John James, and am a Tele player, like John James apparently is (per his avatar). Don’t have any paisley Teles, though. I have had a Wreck ever since they came out, Quantum silver, but now converted to a 1-12 combo (gold), and I had a master volume added a few years ago and I LOVE IT! I’m old and can’t take volume anymore, so I run it with a BrakeLite cranked down to 4, and then use the MV to fine tune the volume, works superbly IMHO. Use it at home, to gig, to record: always fits the bill. I can’t tell that it’s taken anything away from the amp, but then, I,ve never played it at full volume, ever! Who could?
my $.02.
jj
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Post by John James on Jan 9, 2022 22:46:02 GMT -7
It’s been a battle for me because I love this amp so much but I’m not even really a musician these days. And when I was? Yeah, wasn’t able to play this on Broadway in nashville or really in my own home honestly.
As mentioned this will be #3, #4 if you count the z wreck jr I bought but quickly got rid of. For me, it’s all about the gold and blue combo that makes this amp what it is.
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