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Post by z4me on Mar 30, 2014 14:12:08 GMT -7
This is an except from the post I made in the SRZ-65 section:
Looking for some direction and suggestions on which tubes to swap out for my newly acquired SRZ-65 LE. Which tubes should I replace first to make the greatest impact to the tone? Leaning towards obtaining some NOS tubes in this effort.
I am looking for nice smooth gain and more low end if I can get it. So far I am not getting as much gain as I expected, though I understand this is not a modern high gain amp. Right now the gain level reminds me of a Marshall JMP where you might turn the gain up to 10 to get the tone and sustain you desire.
I find I am playing with the gain in the 2 - 3 o'clock range right now, so maybe I am looking for more saturation and a smoother/warmer tone as opposed to more gain. See the power tubes comment below. Currently playing a Les Paul into a Z 2x12 open back with a gold and g12h-75 Creamback. I imagine I will get more low end with a closed back cab though.
Checked the tube situation and here is what I found:
V1 = JJ ECC83S
V2= GE JAN-5751 Made in USA (Other markings 87-37, 88-09, 33173) Thought that I saw a post from Myles saying the 5751 was good for more headroom/less gain. I want more gain, so suspecting this one to replace or maybe move to a different position.
V3 = 12ax7 Tung-Sol Made in Russia (Original in this amp?)
Power tubes = GT-EL34-R Made in Russia 1006. Have not seen any other forum posts thus far mentioning this R variant of GT EL34. Read descriptions about this tube online saying the break up is a bit harsh and unique sound, slightly edgy distortion when pushed hard. I feel the distortion is good but does seem a bit harsh. Again, was not quite expecting these tones. Then again, I am playing pretty quiet, so not really driving the power tubes. Another to replace?
Rect = Mesa 5AR4/GZ34. Another to replace? I have a used JJ GZ34 that I had in a different amp that I could use.
I do have a Made in USA 12ax7a tube. Can't tell the manufacturer, but from pics online, I believe it to be a RCA short gray plate. Says Made in USA and below this it has the 12ax7a in a rectangular octagon.
I appreciate the assistance.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Mar 30, 2014 17:42:46 GMT -7
The 5751 is not stock in v2. I would try a 12ax7. Also check the bias to make sure it isn't biased too cold. Might even try another 12ax7 in v1 just to make sure it isn't weak. If the 12ax7 you have is USA I would use it in V1. Never had a problem with not enough gain with mine. I usually run the gain between 10 and 12. Also run my treble and cut pretty low.
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Post by z4me on Mar 31, 2014 22:38:31 GMT -7
Thanks Marc. I have a used JJ ECC83S that I can use in V2 and pull the 5751 to see the difference and put that USA made 12ax7z in V1. Had the 12ax7a in a Maz Jr and it sounded very good. Unfortunately I do not know how to bias an amp.... yet. I think I need to learn. I will try swapping the Mesa rect for a used JJ as well.
Maybe I am expecting more gain from the amp then what it can give, but from various posts, does seem like it should have some more. If I run the gain between 10 - 12 o'clock, the amp produces a nice overdrive. I also run the treble and presence knobs pretty low, 10 - 11 o'clock range, as the amp is bright.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Apr 1, 2014 7:20:51 GMT -7
Jerry, here's my overall advice on re-tubing your SRZ (and can generally be applied to many other amps, as well): V1: Look for a good "low-noise" 12AX7 here; you don't necessarily need "low microphonics," though, because it's not subject to the intense pressure levels inside a combo cabinet. (This would probably be the 1st place to splurge on a slightly more expensive tube, if you want to--but you don't have to.) V2: Any decent 12AX7 here, probably the least critical spot. V3: Look for a "long plate" 12AX7 (such as the Sovtek 12AX7LPS or JJ ECC803S), preferrably with "balanced triodes" in this phase-inverter spot. V4–5: I believe your Groove Tubes EL-34R's are actually made by Electro-Harmonix (click this link). That's not to say they're bad, though. I don't know of any particular "crowd favorite" EL-34 right now. V6: Go with a proven, reliable rectifier tube.. the Sovtek 5AR4 and JJ GZ34 are quite popular. Many NOS rectifier tubes are also regarded as "better" because they were built with better quality & tolerances back then. (This would be the 2nd place to splurge on a better [NOS] tube, if you want to.) First rule of buying tubes: buy from a reliable vendor. Second rule of tubes: see the first rule. And lastly, if you're not 100% comfortable biasing your own amp, don't do it--touching the wrong thing inside an amp could literally kill you. Any amp tech worth his salt could do this safely & quickly, and shouldn't charge you too much to do so.
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Post by z4me on Apr 1, 2014 22:33:04 GMT -7
Mark, thanks for the information and I also appreciate the warning on having to be extremely careful and know what you are doing when working on amps. I actually did understand there is a great risk there and I am not the type to just start messing around with it. I was thinking more of studying up on the subject and watch someone do it first before I attempted. More than likely I never will get that far and will just take to a tech. My Stang Ray is cathode biased so I don't need to bias anything when swapping power tubes.
To confirm, when replacing power tubes in the SRZ, you need to bias them. Preamps do not need to be biased, can just swap in and out. However, not sure on this one, you can just swap the rectifier as well without biasing correct?
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Apr 2, 2014 6:52:54 GMT -7
You have the tube swapping info correct. Technically if you swap rectifiers you should check the bias as the new one, even though it may be the same type of tube, might put out different current than the old one if one is not up to specs. Quite possible with today's tubes. But I personally would do it without much worry and then watch the power tubes while I was playing for a while and make sure they don't red plate. There is a range of acceptable bias and likely you would be in it if the amp was biased right to start.
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Apr 4, 2014 17:42:50 GMT -7
Any nice old RCA long Grey/Black Plate 12AX7 will smooth out the treble issue, and KT77's will add tons of Bottom and Nice smooth Creamy Midrange! Think of Paul Kossoff Tone!! Your right on the $$$ with your speaker choice , will clean nicely and be awesome wicked mean when Cranked or Pushed, Its the only amp that sounds better the Harder its Pushed!!!!!
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Apr 4, 2014 17:45:31 GMT -7
OH Yeah!!! A good quality REc Tube Will do amazing things , unless you want Tight HUge bottom for like Modern Metal Tones copper Cap may be the way to go
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Apr 4, 2014 18:14:02 GMT -7
I was waiting for Jamie to jump in -
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Post by z4me on Apr 4, 2014 22:35:13 GMT -7
Finally had some time to try some tube swapping this evening. I went through some extra used tubes that I had, thinking I was taking a JJ ECC803S out of the box and to my surprise it was a Sovtek 12AX7LPS. Yay, knew right away that was going in PI V3. I wanted to change just one tube at a time to get a good feel for the differences but only had so many tubes to use.
First change, was to remove the JAN 5751 from V2 and replace with the 12ax7 Tung-Sol Made in Russia tube that was in V3. Put the Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V3. Oh yeah, that made a big difference. Now that is the amp that I thought I was getting with more saturation, overdrive and harmonics. It was difficult to stop playing. My guess is replacing the JAN 5751 made the biggest difference of the two tubes I put in place, but I imagine the Sovtek LPS had some impact too. Due to family and family guests in the house, I was not playing very loud at all, but still noticed quite a change. Though I tried different gain settings, usually playing around 1 - 2 o'clock.
Second change was to replace the JJ ECC803S in V1. Pulled the JJ ECC803S and saw that the plates are very short. Not sure if that really makes a big difference, but was somewhat surprised to see. In its place I used what I believe to be the Made In USA RCA 12ax7a short grey plate tube. Was not sure it made a big difference at first, but the more I played the more I could hear a fuller tone to everything, maybe some additional bass too. Again, difficult to stop playing since it sounded so good. Didn't matter if I was playing the bridge pup, neck pup or both, all tones were excellent. This amp rocks with such dynamics and clarity. Meaning, I could hear all the strings clearly, not mushed together, even on the neck pup and full output. I just sold a 1987 Marshall Jubilee and it could never get such clarity/articulation.
I will swap out the Mesa rectifier for the JJ GZ-34 tomorrow to see if that makes any difference.
Thanks for the assistance. This was a good learning experience.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Apr 5, 2014 10:36:03 GMT -7
Pulled the JJ ECC803S and saw that the plates are very short. Not sure if that really makes a big difference, but was somewhat surprised to see. That's surprising, because the JJ ECC803S is a long-plate design. Maybe it's mis-marked? (Wouldn't surprise me.. there's a lot of funny business happening out there in the tube-manufacturing world). The 'regular' JJ ECC83S is indeed a very short plate, but the 8 03 is much taller. Weird. Glad to hear you're getting the tubes situated and that it's sounding better with every change! Also, I'm jealous that you have family & friends who will tolerate you playing the SRZ at 1–2 o'clock... that's still pretty darn loud, I bet!
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Post by z4me on Apr 5, 2014 10:51:23 GMT -7
Hi Mark,
My mistake the tube that was in V1 was a short plate JJ ECC83S, not the long plate 803S. Regarding the volume, the gain was at 1 - 2 o'clock, but the master was way down, so the overall volume was fairly quiet. I have not had the amp cranked yet. That is a test for when nobody is home.
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Apr 6, 2014 6:25:04 GMT -7
if people only knew the potential of this amp and how well the MV works all Z Deciples would own one, Its the 65 watts that Scares people! Just Saying
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Post by z4me on Apr 7, 2014 8:54:28 GMT -7
if people only knew the potential of this amp and how well the MV works all Z Deciples would own one, Its the 65 watts that Scares people! Just Saying The 65 watts did initially scare me away. I have a Ray at 30 loud watts, so figured that I certainty don't need a 60 watt amp, though it did have a master. Therefore, I targeted and obtained a Remedy with 40 watts with the half power switch. My Remedy had the eq bypass and the master volume, but I could not bond with the gain tone. For me, I think that I don't like the break up of 6v6 tubes as I had a different 6v6 amp and sold that one off as well. I found the Marshall Jubilee and liked the el34 gain tones thus sold the Remedy. Again with the SRZ, really like the el34 gain tones. Like the SRZ tones better than the jubilee, so recently sold the jubilee. Agree that the master seems to work well on the SRZ, though I have not turned up the SRZ very loud at all yet, so not much of a comparison for me on that. But I like the tones I am getting at low volume, so it works for me. The amp flat out rocks and has that rock tone that many would desire. All in a point to point wired circuit.
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Apr 7, 2014 18:04:57 GMT -7
I had a remedy too, could not bond with, want to try with new mods. Fellow Z forum member Roknfnrol has had a Rem for years and everytime I hear him play through it I GAS BAD! For that tone , However the truth is his tone comes from his hands. Hes also a Really Great Player too,I could never get my Rem To sound that way, I also Suck on Guitar though may be a lot of reason.... LOL However I have another 6V6 amp That gives me all that Tone I crave, It actually has 2 separate preamp Sections that can be blended and 1/2 power It sounds Best, The louder you turn it up, Here Kitty KItty !!! )
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