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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 12, 2012 12:23:27 GMT -7
Also, that one 12ax7 that you didn't try is a pretty important tube, the phase inverter.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:33:41 GMT -7
So my conclusion is that my amp is fine... And it's just quieter than I thought and thanks to y'all's help the over compression issue is solved. Thanks for helping me dial things in.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:38:06 GMT -7
Also, that one 12ax7 that you didn't try is a pretty important tube, the phase inverter. Ill make sure to try it out plz.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:39:09 GMT -7
And also - I think I'm also experiencing something new for the first time... trying to run higher gain classic rock power chord tones through a really low wattage amp. For the last few years I've had amps 30 watts or higher.
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 12, 2012 12:40:58 GMT -7
Cool, I hope it works out. If the amps not for you then I can probably speak for all of us and say, "we understand." That's just how it is. We all hear things differently to some degree and we are all chasing the tone we hear in our head.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:54:29 GMT -7
Cool, I hope it works out. If the amps not for you then I can probably speak for all of us and say, "we understand." That's just how it is. We all hear things differently to some degree and we are all chasing the tone we hear in our head. Thanks man - I really wanted this amp to work out. I'm still working with it. But right now I just can get the fullness out of it I was hoping for. I may have to go back to the amp I was looking at before this... Mesa Lonestar.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 13:03:02 GMT -7
Ok so I tried everything out... New power tubes that I know are good and work, re-socketing all the tubes except Recitifer and 12ax7. I tried plugging my amp into a different Z 1x12 combo cab with a Celestion Gold in it. When it came to the tubes nothing changed which means nothing is wrong with my tubes at all. But, you only changed the EL84s, right? If the 5Y3 is bad, you could be getting excessively low voltage to all the tubes, which would reduce your volume and fullness. If the EF86 is bad, you could be losing input gain, which would do the same thing. If the PI is bad, you won't be driving the EL84s properly, which could do the same thing. So, you can't conclude that there's nothing wrong with your tubes until you've replaced them all with known good ones. You may be right about them not being bad, but technically, you have not verified that yet. When I plugged the Gold combo cab the sound improved a good amount so maybe a different speaker would suit me better. Maybe a more efficient one. But none of these scenarios effect the loudness of the amp significantly. That's where a complete tube verification, one-by-one, may reveal something. Trust me, I've been through this before, so I know it's a pain, but you don't truly know if you have a bad tube somewhere other than the EL84s. I also tried your settings Volume: to taste on LO input, Bass- 12:00, Treble - 12:30. That did help a bit with compression and squashiness but it made it less full sounding which I didn't like. I think y'all were right about the controls all bring dialed in too high at first. I'm still not sure if this amp like higher gain tones being ran into it (by pedals). My Treble is 9:30-10:30, not 12:30. You're still adding gain in the high frequencies. Remember, running them at 12:00 is like max'ing out normal EQ knobs. I think you're still running EQ too high for high output HBs and stacked OD pedals. Try running the Bass at 11:00-12:00 MAX and Treble around 10:30. Reducing Treble with respect to Bass will add the perception of fatness. You won't really start losing high end much till you get below that but you WILL increase headroom quite a bit, I've found. Plus, you can always add more high end on your pedal instead of at the amp (if you feel you need it). Don't be afraid to twist those amp dials by ear instead of sight! It's still not as full as I want it to be. Maybe I should try that WGS speaker y'all have been talking about. Speakers DO make a huge difference with this amp, but I'm not convinced you're dialing the amp properly for what you want (see above) or that all your tubes are up to snuff. That said, the BH-HP is indeed a very fat speaker and a perfect match for the M12, IMO. It's fuller and rounder than the Greenback. Also, the M12 isn't as heavy in the low mids as the MAZ series amps are. But, you can still get nice fat HB into pedal OD tones by running the M12 Treble down in the 9:00-10:30 range and Bass at 12:00 MAX. Try it! Lastly, have you listened to my clips above? Do you think those tones are thin and weak???
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 14:16:36 GMT -7
^Sorry I made a typo... My treble was at 10:30. My settings were exactly at the settings your suggested me to try.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 14:30:06 GMT -7
^Sorry I made a typo... My treble was at 10:30. My settings were exactly at the settings your suggested me to try. Cool. Sounds like the lower EQ settings did solve the compression issue, but now you're looking for a thicker tone? As mentioned above, the M12 voicing just may not be for you or maybe it's the speaker. Honestly, I had a *lot* of trouble bonding with the Greenback in this 1x12 combo situation, but not because it was too thin. I just didn't care for the mids voicing. In fact, I probably wouldn't have kept the amp if I had to use the Greenback in a 1x12 open-back. The Scumback PVCs in my Germino 4x12 sounded ungodly with it though! Interestingly, in the 1x12 format, it wasn't until I started getting away from Celestions that I really started getting fired up. The WGS BH-HP was the best for my tastes, but the Eminence RWB, Tone Tubby H1E and EVM-12L Classic were also all WAY better than the Greenback G12M or G12-65 that I tried. Also, the best cab I've found for the BH-HP is the Forte 3D112. BTW, have you listened to those clips? I'm still wondering how you're getting a "thin" tone when what I'm hearing is nice and full.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 15:43:18 GMT -7
Can you tell me how all those speakers effect the tone in comparison to the green back. The Gold did help a little when I tried it but the core if the issue was still there. Again - this boxy or smaller sounding tone is mostly an issue with a les Paul bridge pickups rocking classic rock power chords. I have not listened to your clips yet, I need to. But at the same time I don't know how much they'll help cuz when I mic the M12 and hear it through our big (8,000 watt) PA the boxy tones don't come thru the PA. The tone gets boxy when I stand more than 10 ft away from my M12. Does that make sense? So maybe the M12 just doesn't have the "THROW" I want it to. But I still feel 12 watts should have more than 10 ft of throwing a full sound.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 15:52:08 GMT -7
From the looks of the WGS Blackhawks it looks like they are made for 100 watt amps.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 21:44:46 GMT -7
Ab,
It's the 1x12 combo cab, not the amp. I have two 1x12 combos and they both can get a little "boxy" sounding at a distance, especially outside or in a big room when there's no back wall to bounce the sound off of. It's the nature of the beast. Have you tried running the M12 into a different cab? Honestly, I just bought an M12 head shell so I can run it into an assortment of separate cabs. My two faves are the Forte 3D 1x12 and Germino 4x12! The amp sounds huge into both.
The Z 1x12 combo cab is one of the best I've ever heard and obviously lots of pros use them but all 1x12 open-back combos are prone to sounding a little boxy at a distance.
What other rigs do you have and how do they compare?
Dave
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 22:32:12 GMT -7
^ I understand what yer saying but my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo does not sound boxy at all... my M12 1x12 combo does.
I'm only comparing my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo to my M12 1x12 combo and the M12 sounds way boxier in comparison.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 13, 2012 8:36:57 GMT -7
^ I understand what yer saying but my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo does not sound boxy at all... my M12 1x12 combo does. I'm only comparing my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo to my M12 1x12 combo and the M12 sounds way boxier in comparison. Really??? Wow, that's interesting. Are they exactly the same cab and speaker? If not, it be interesting to run the M12 into the Maz cab/speaker and the Maz into the M12 cab/speaker to see if the problem follows the amp or the cab.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 13, 2012 8:59:00 GMT -7
^ I understand what yer saying but my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo does not sound boxy at all... my M12 1x12 combo does. I'm only comparing my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo to my M12 1x12 combo and the M12 sounds way boxier in comparison. Really??? Wow, that's interesting. Are they exactly the same cab and speaker? If not, it be interesting to run the M12 into the Maz cab/speaker and the Maz into the M12 cab/speaker to see if the problem follows the amp or the cab. Thanks for the advice. I did all those scenarios and its the M12 amp itself that sounds boxy. It is less boxy when used with a Gold.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 13, 2012 12:23:16 GMT -7
Really??? Wow, that's interesting. Are they exactly the same cab and speaker? If not, it be interesting to run the M12 into the Maz cab/speaker and the Maz into the M12 cab/speaker to see if the problem follows the amp or the cab. Thanks for the advice. I did all those scenarios and its the M12 amp itself that sounds boxy. It is less boxy when used with a Gold. Wow, that's weird. Do my clips sound boxy?
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 13, 2012 12:44:55 GMT -7
I only have my iPhone to listen to those clips and since they are on that website I need flash. So I can't access them.
Again I just want to clarify - its when I add my overdrives with my Hamer that heavily overdriven tones sound boxy... Never the amp just by itself.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 13, 2012 12:46:11 GMT -7
I have about $214 now for a speaker so lets see if that helps if I choose to keep it. So now to decide.... Blue or Blackhawk.
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Post by Jefferson on Oct 13, 2012 13:21:53 GMT -7
Looking to trade my blue for a gold if that becomes of interest to you...
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 13, 2012 18:42:05 GMT -7
Mazmaster... Hey I'm literally not able to listen to your sound clips. Anyway you can email me the files apart from using sound click? You have to use adobe flash and my phone and iPad are not capable of that. And I just tried downloading flash in my computer and it crashed. Lol.
So anyway you can help me hear those sound clips?
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 13, 2012 20:51:36 GMT -7
What ODs you using? BTW, I'd go Blackhawk HP in a heartbeat over the Blue with this amp. It really benefits from the warmer, fuller tone of the Blackhawk 100W. Will send you the links and clips via email.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 13, 2012 21:56:59 GMT -7
Got the clips - thank you!
The pedals I'm using for this classic rock, heavily overdriven, power chords with my Hamer are a Bearfoot Honey Bee Overdrive and a Skreddy Screwdriver Mini Deluxe (with a custom switch for humbucker voicing switch built in).
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Post by diyblues on Oct 14, 2012 6:04:38 GMT -7
When I need more power out of my small (2xel84) combos I use Eminence Wizard speaker. It has a huge sound... greenbackish... but more... well everything.. and 103dB!!
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 14, 2012 6:26:25 GMT -7
Anyone gig the M12 1x12 combo and stand 20 feet away from it?
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 14, 2012 11:54:44 GMT -7
Yes! Sounds amazing!
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Post by ledzep618 on Oct 14, 2012 20:39:24 GMT -7
Hey Abandonded - Before you drop a ton of cash on the speaker do yourself a favor and get a new EF86. I can almost assure you every problem you are experiencing - the boxiness, thinness, and whacked out bees in a can compressed overdrive is a result of a failing EF86. I know this because my M12 arrived with a crappy EF86 and I had the exact issues you are having and was very disappointed at first. EF86 are just notoriously fragile and short lived tubes. Minor shipping vibrations can cause one to fail even on a brand new amp. If you get a good NOS tube it'll last quite a while, but most new production, including some of the ones the Dr. ships with just aren't good.
Upon putting in the new EF86 is was like my M12 did a complete 180 and opened up into a lush, harmonically rich amp that is anything but thin and boxy. Please try a new EF86, I bet you will be a really happy camper. For a moderately priced, robust NOS EF86 I would recommend the NOS Tesla EF-806 from Mike and KCA nos tubes.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 14, 2012 20:55:58 GMT -7
Yep, I mentioned the EF86 possibility too, as mine started out OK but went bad quickly. The symptoms were ultimately microphonics and then death but tone started suffering first. Doc sent a couple out immediately and voila! I eventually tried an Amperex NOS EF86 and am quite pleased with it. It's got a touch more air than the Winged Cs, but the latter sound killer too.
Oh, BTW, Z mentioned that it might be best to remove the shield on the EF86 to allow for more cooling and potentially prevent early demise of the less stable modern production versions.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 14, 2012 21:01:41 GMT -7
Ill try to try a new EF86 but I've basically decided to return the amp. Thanks for the help y'all... but I'm gonna go for the other amp I was looking at before this. Y'all have been awesome and nice. Thanks so much for all your time.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 15, 2012 7:15:07 GMT -7
Ill try to try a new EF86 but I've basically decided to return the amp. Thanks for the help y'all... but I'm gonna go for the other amp I was looking at before this. Y'all have been awesome and nice. Thanks so much for all your time. Good luck in your search!
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Post by Jefferson on Oct 15, 2012 9:06:10 GMT -7
sorry you feel the need to "abandon" this amp. I've owned 6 other Z's not to mention many other boutique amps and the m12, at least for me, is the most rich and incredible sounding amp of them all. Really wish you were able to walk in to a shop and play one that isnt having these problems.
I too would encourage you just to throw in a new EF86 just to see if it doesnt completely change things. it really might change your mind about the amp.
Good luck!
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