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Post by gfreak on Jul 31, 2012 20:41:00 GMT -7
I want one, but I will have to sell my Vox AC15H1TV. Just curious if you can get that Vox chime and grind?
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Post by Frankie Starr on Jul 31, 2012 22:12:12 GMT -7
Not to my ears.....more like Princeton reverb (without reverb of course) cleans, less pronounced mids, with plenty of sparkle. Not saying it's exactly like that but way closer then the Vox sound IMO. What do some of you other guy's think ?
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 1, 2012 5:26:48 GMT -7
I agree with Frankie, it has more sparkle than chime. Although, with the right speaker, and the treble knob high, it can bring on more Vox-like qualities. There is some chime, but it's not near as much as, say... the StangRay, or even the Maz Jr can do. It really is it's own thing, and doesn't really sound like anything else in the Z lineup (maybe some small similarities with the Z-Wreck).
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 1, 2012 6:30:21 GMT -7
It all depends on speakers and cabs, of course, but I'm hearing all the same chime and sparkle as in classic Vox, but the mids are voiced much differently and the M12 takes a wider assortment of pedals MUCH better than AC15/30 type amps. I don't have adjectives to describe the midrange thing, but I find it fairly unique, not really falling into any camp specifically, except Doc Z's own.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Aug 1, 2012 9:58:53 GMT -7
Not to my ears.....more like Princeton reverb (without reverb of course) cleans, less pronounced mids, with plenty of sparkle. Not saying it's exactly like that but way closer then the Vox sound IMO. What do some of you other guy's think ? I, too, will agree with Frankie--as soon as I plugged into the M12 1x10 combo (w/ Z-10" speaker) at Mike's house last month, I immediately looked up and said, "This could take the place of a (really good) Princeton." So, IMO, if that's what you want... get the 1 x Z-10" combo. That being said... Princeton or VOX or whatever... it still sounded fantastic through 2xBlues (and reportedly 1xGold as well, or so says Mike).
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Post by Maddog on Aug 1, 2012 10:14:30 GMT -7
The M12 may have a Princeton-ish sound......but it's MUCH bigger sounding than my AB763 Princeton Reverb.... I'll bet it could get pretty close to an AC 15/30 TB sound thru a pair of Celestion Blues or silver bells....
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Post by gfreak on Aug 1, 2012 11:58:44 GMT -7
Thanks for all the responses. I just want to get close, in the ballpark, of Vox. I like the Vox but it's time to move on. It would be nice to have something a little more versatile. Anyone want a Vox AC 15H1TV??
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 1, 2012 12:36:28 GMT -7
Regarding the Princeton comments, I just sat in on a buddy's mint vintage Princeton BF and, to my ears, it was WORLDS apart from the M12. Didn't take pedals quite as well and didn't have the same clean headroom. That said, it was dialed in a bit lower than where I've gigged the M12, so that could have biased the comparison. But, the whole sonic signature seemed REALLY different to me...way different mids, IMO.
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Post by Frankie Starr on Aug 1, 2012 15:31:26 GMT -7
Regarding the Princeton comments, I just sat in on a buddy's mint vintage Princeton BF and, to my ears, it was WORLDS apart from the M12. Didn't take pedals quite as well and didn't have the same clean headroom. That said, it was dialed in a bit lower than where I've gigged the M12, so that could have biased the comparison. But, the whole sonic signature seemed REALLY different to me...way different mids, IMO. I have to chime in again on this, last night I compared my vintage Princeton Reverb (reverb off) to the M12. Both with 1-10 Eminence speakers. There was a BIG difference, as you said. Now I must preface this by saying my PR is one of the sweetest sounding amps I have ever played, it's a real good un. The Princeton sounded bigger, seemed more full range, where the m12 seemed like it had less fullness, for lack of a better word. I take back my original comment.....(is that legal ?) It's hard to put it into words, but it sounded like the PR had more to offer, and had a classic sound that screamed fender, where the M12 is a totally different beast. I must say I was surprised at this comparison.....I might do a quick comparison demo, between those two, the 1-10 Z28 and 1-10 Monza, 1-10 Gia, 1-10 Maz18NR. Put my new Voodoo lab amp selector to work ! haha I still like the M12 a lot BTW
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Post by Maddog on Aug 1, 2012 17:36:56 GMT -7
My Princeton Reverb compared to my M12 thru the same greenback 12, lacks a bit on the low end, and just doesn't have the sonic complexity of the M12.....(and my PR is a good one too Frankie). I totally dig my Princeton, but only when it's dimed.... When it's played at less than full saturation, it just doesn't have fullness the M12 has..... Different strokes, eh? I still love you tho, Frankie!!!!
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Post by Jefferson on Aug 1, 2012 18:24:11 GMT -7
Frankie I would be interested in hearing your thoughts when played through a 12.
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Post by Frankie Starr on Aug 1, 2012 19:32:42 GMT -7
My Princeton Reverb compared to my M12 thru the same greenback 12, lacks a bit on the low end, and just doesn't have the sonic complexity of the M12.....(and my PR is a good one too Frankie). I totally dig my Princeton, but only when it's dimed.... When it's played at less than full saturation, it just doesn't have fullness the M12 has..... Different strokes, eh? I still love you tho, Frankie!!!! Well, you know that's the thing about 40 year old amps ! They all age and degrade differently. No two really sound the same, unlike the Z's ! They are darn consistent IMO. My thoughts on the M12 ? First off I like anything thought up by Z, cause he's a friend. But, I guess I would say it's pretty lean in the mids, tons of clarity. Volume is about Princeton level, wasn't the PR 14 watts ? And the M12 is a squeaky clean and lean, no mud factor. I think it's a little picky on speakers, I would like to try a Greenback...though I typically don't care for them. Mind you mine is brand new, very little time on her. I think like most amps it will soften up a little with age. I have tried a bunch of pedals with it, and it didn't take and like everything I threw at it, but mind you I have several shelves of overdrives alone. Seemed like for the the type of overdrive tones I prefer, it liked pedals like the BB Preamp, ones with thick mids and lots of drive on tap, where the cleaner pedals like the Timmy, or Durham Sex Drive, Sweet Honey sounded a tad to brilliant for my taste. But as we all know, one man's bright is another man's clear. I have only used my 335's through it, and they are by nature big fat and juicy ! I'm still getting to know it. I would like to shoot out a couple (less produced) vids for you guy's, just to keep it easy on the editing side . I'll have to talk to my personal camera person ! (Doreen, my wife) I would be interested to hear other opinions as well.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 1, 2012 20:55:32 GMT -7
Frankie, Based on the many speakers and cabs I've tried and the many clips I've listened to and based on what at least one other forum member has reported, I just don't think 10" speakers are a good match with the M12, for what I like to hear anyway. But, it actually competed with my Germino Monterey 100 (JTM 45/100 repro) in bigness and with equal complexity and pedal friendliness when plugged into the Germino 4x12 with Scumback M75-PVCs! It was a real shocker. It was damn near just as full and big but with a touch more clarity on the low with pedals. But, I didn't care for the M12 with the stock Greenback in a 1x12 combo cab. Go figure! I know you have lived this yourself for many years, but amps, cabs and speakers all need to be matched up and then compared IMO. Sometimes, comparing amps by running them into the same speakers/cabs is not a good comparison because you could easily pass up the "better" amp for your tastes just by pairing it with a speaker/cab that doesn't do it justice. When I got the WGS Blackhawk HP into the M12 1x12 combo cab, it was game over! It wasn't quite like playing it into the 4x12, but it sounded as big and bad and FULL as any 1x12 combo I've owned. But, the Blackhawk HP can sound too muffled and congested in the mids with some amps I own - like the D-styles - when trying to get a nice chimey neck/middle SC tone. For those amps, the EVM-12L works much better for that kind of front end. Here are some clips from a recent gig that were posted in another thread. The SCs into the BB sound clear and snappy and crisp - as good SCs should sound - but with just enough fullness to keep from being thin and the bridge HB into the GSR sound big and fat and Dumbly, just as that pedal was designed to sound. Do these sound thin and lack fullness to you? Be honest! Neck/Middle Suhr FL SCs into Xotic BB: www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793611&q=hi&newref=1Suhr DSH Bridge HB into original Jetter GSR: www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793615&q=hi&newref=1Suhr DSH Bridge HB into original Jetter GSR: www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793617&q=hi&newref=1Neck/Middle Suhr FL SCs into Xotic BB: www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793619&q=hi&newref=1Neck/Middle Suhr FL SCs into Xotic BB: www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793620&q=hi&newref=1 In the following clip, the bypass LED on my Loopmaster burned out and I didn't realize that when I kicked into the solo, I would have been greeted with the totally clean sound you hear in the clip. That's my fairly high output Suhr DSH into the clean amp with the above settings. I had to keep the solo going while trying to figure out what was wrong with the Loopmaster, but eventually was able to get the GSR into the signal path! LOL. It's a screw-up which turns out to be great at demo'ing the clean-to-mean transition with a pedal. www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11798310&q=hi&newref=1Read more: ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m12&action=display&thread=50911#ixzz22ME3RXQB
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Post by Frankie Starr on Aug 1, 2012 21:39:19 GMT -7
Thanks mazmaster....I have heard good things about WGS. I think your probably right, a 1-10 is not the best choice for her, unless volume is a concern. Someone told me WGS actually send out speakers sometimes for evaluation , with the option to buy . Anyone ever hear anything like this ? I'll check out your clips, but really am a humbucker guy me self. You don't have to persuade me that the M12 is a great amp Brotha......But I think any Z fans who have tried it can see this is a totally different type of beast compared to the other models we all know and love. My mini review was as honest as I could make it. Also, (and DRZ knows this) With the exceptions of a couple Duncan amps and a Boogie, I pretty much grew up and learned to play on Fender amps. That's probably why I love my EZG's so much......I will do some vids/clips soon
Just saw and listened to the humbucker clip, The Blues Is Alright ! Killer man, i might have to get one of those speakers. Is this the band where the bass player doubles on keys ? I love you guys ! haha
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 2, 2012 6:47:32 GMT -7
Thanks mazmaster....I have heard good things about WGS. I think your probably right, a 1-10 is not the best choice for her, unless volume is a concern. Someone told me WGS actually send out speakers sometimes for evaluation , with the option to buy . Anyone ever hear anything like this ? I'll check out your clips, but really am a humbucker guy me self. You don't have to persuade me that the M12 is a great amp Brotha......But I think any Z fans who have tried it can see this is a totally different type of beast compared to the other models we all know and love. My mini review was as honest as I could make it. Also, (and DRZ knows this) With the exceptions of a couple Duncan amps and a Boogie, I pretty much grew up and learned to play on Fender amps. That's probably why I love my EZG's so much......I will do some vids/clips soon Just saw and listened to the humbucker clip, The Blues Is Alright ! Killer man, i might have to get one of those speakers. Is this the band where the bass player doubles on keys ? I love you guys ! haha Thanks for the totally honest review, Frankie! I gave one too and mentioned I didn't care for the stock Greenback in the 1x12 and Doc took it exactly as intended....a very subjective and personal choice. On the other hand, I went through a bunch of tubes and ended up right back at the stock arrangement as my favorite! LOL. Here's another bridge HB clip from above which I think you'd like. Oh, and no, this isn't the band you're thinking of. This is Soul On Tap from Rochester, NY with some sub players that night! LOL. Suhr DSH Bridge HB into original Jetter GSR: Jerry's Blues www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11793615&q=hi&newref=1
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 2, 2012 6:49:04 GMT -7
I haven't heard anything about WGS loaning out speakers, but they're very cool over there and will answer questions quickly. I have four of their speaks!
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Post by Frankie Starr on Aug 2, 2012 23:35:59 GMT -7
I haven't heard anything about WGS loaning out speakers, but they're very cool over there and will answer questions quickly. I have four of their speaks! The WGS Blackhawk sounded like a good choice, until I saw the price !! I didn't realize it was an Alnico speaker. Your clips with it sound great to my ears. I have a stable of speaks, Think I'll try a JBL orange label...maybe some old jenson alnicos first. Thanks for all the info and clips ! Awesome job !
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Post by pintail78 on Aug 3, 2012 16:16:37 GMT -7
The BF Princeton is a very different circuit than the Princeton Reverb. The reverb has much less headroom and breaks up earlier. The non-reverb has lots more headroom and can hang with a band if the drummer isnt a maniac.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 3, 2012 17:56:35 GMT -7
I haven't heard anything about WGS loaning out speakers, but they're very cool over there and will answer questions quickly. I have four of their speaks! The WGS Blackhawk sounded like a good choice, until I saw the price !! I didn't realize it was an Alnico speaker. Your clips with it sound great to my ears. I have a stable of speaks, Think I'll try a JBL orange label...maybe some old jenson alnicos first. Thanks for all the info and clips ! Awesome job ! Hey, Frankie, you can get a similar effect with the Eminence RWB for like $79. (Like all new speakers, just make sure you break it in before judging it.) I have one in an Allen Accomplice 1x12 combo and it was one of my favorite speaks with the M12 out of the bunch I tried. Like the BH HP, it has a balanced response, it's fat and full sounding and it's smooth with OD pedals. The BH HP is more complex and airy with more chime on cleans while still being really smooth w/ OD pedals, but at $75 for the RWB vs. $234 for the WGS, the RWB is NOT a bad deal! The RWB is more efficient than the BH HP, so it'll be louder at any given volume setting but that could be a good thing if you need that headroom.
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Post by Frankie Starr on Aug 7, 2012 20:47:08 GMT -7
Thanks for the suggestion, I did try one, and it seemed smoother in the highs and mids, but a little light in the bass.....but then I tried a eminence swamp thing, and it was the best match so far. I am still going to try the jbl d 120 f, I have heard them sound great in certain situations. So many speakers, so little time! Haha I'll check back with results as I experiment.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 8, 2012 21:10:10 GMT -7
Thanks for the suggestion, I did try one, and it seemed smoother in the highs and mids, but a little light in the bass.....but then I tried a eminence swamp thing, and it was the best match so far. I am still going to try the jbl d 120 f, I have heard them sound great in certain situations. So many speakers, so little time! Haha I'll check back with results as I experiment. Indeed! Hey, I popped a set of Ruby tested "average distortion" JJ EL84s in mine as part of the debug of an EF86 gone bad and found them to be quite nice in the M12 too. Seem to be a little fatter and darker than the stock EH with the EH having a little more complexity overall. Maybe the JJs are worth a try for what you're after.
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Post by apreswho on Aug 19, 2012 10:14:40 GMT -7
You guys really have me lusting after one of these! Which seems fitting because i've almost bought a PR more times than i can count now. So does it seem to lean in the Fender or Vox camp due to speaker choice? obviously thats got a lot to do with but just wondering if that was sort of the common denominator?
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 20, 2012 10:19:19 GMT -7
You guys really have me lusting after one of these! Which seems fitting because i've almost bought a PR more times than i can count now. So does it seem to lean in the Fender or Vox camp due to speaker choice? obviously thats got a lot to do with but just wondering if that was sort of the common denominator? In addition to the M12, I currently own a Maz 18 Jr NR, Allen Accomplice (BF Deluxe style), Germino Monterey 100 halfstack (Marshall JTM 45/100 repro), Glaswerks SODII (D-style), Quinn SDO (D-style) and have owned a Route 66 and two different Fuchs D-styles among many other different amps. IMO, the M12 is a unique beast unto itself. It has its own feel and tone and I can't say that it really falls into any particular camp. It's the "M12" sound! What I *am* finding with this amp, though, as I play it in more venues and listen back to more clips, is that it is perfectly designed as a pedal platform - w/o the need for attenuation to hit the pedal sweet spot - for any gig environment I've ever encountered, right up to the largest, loudest clubs any bands in my town would play aside from heavy rock and metal clubs with the young kids. Like all Z amps I've owned, the M12 sits in a mix with unusual clarity, even if the soundman doesn't quite get your levels high enough or if you're unmic'ed and have to compete with a crowded mix. Yet, it stays sweet and pleasant when you're "too loud" as well!
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Post by apreswho on Aug 20, 2012 11:07:31 GMT -7
You guys really have me lusting after one of these! Which seems fitting because i've almost bought a PR more times than i can count now. So does it seem to lean in the Fender or Vox camp due to speaker choice? obviously thats got a lot to do with but just wondering if that was sort of the common denominator? In addition to the M12, I currently own a Maz 18 Jr NR, Allen Accomplice (BF Deluxe style), Germino Monterey 100 halfstack (Marshall JTM 45/100 repro), Glaswerks SODII (D-style), Quinn SDO (D-style) and have owned a Route 66 and two different Fuchs D-styles among many other different amps. IMO, the M12 is a unique beast unto itself. It has its own feel and tone and I can't say that it really falls into any particular camp. It's the "M12" sound! What I *am* finding with this amp, though, as I play it in more venues and listen back to more clips, is that it is perfectly designed as a pedal platform - w/o the need for attenuation to hit the pedal sweet spot - for any gig environment I've ever encountered, right up to the largest, loudest clubs any bands in my town would play aside from heavy rock and metal clubs with the young kids. Like all Z amps I've owned, the M12 sits in a mix with unusual clarity, even if the soundman doesn't quite get your levels high enough or if you're unmic'ed and have to compete with a crowded mix. Yet, it stays sweet and pleasant when you're "too loud" as well! Well then. It seems as though I need it!
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 20, 2012 11:19:38 GMT -7
In addition to the M12, I currently own a Maz 18 Jr NR, Allen Accomplice (BF Deluxe style), Germino Monterey 100 halfstack (Marshall JTM 45/100 repro), Glaswerks SODII (D-style), Quinn SDO (D-style) and have owned a Route 66 and two different Fuchs D-styles among many other different amps. IMO, the M12 is a unique beast unto itself. It has its own feel and tone and I can't say that it really falls into any particular camp. It's the "M12" sound! What I *am* finding with this amp, though, as I play it in more venues and listen back to more clips, is that it is perfectly designed as a pedal platform - w/o the need for attenuation to hit the pedal sweet spot - for any gig environment I've ever encountered, right up to the largest, loudest clubs any bands in my town would play aside from heavy rock and metal clubs with the young kids. Like all Z amps I've owned, the M12 sits in a mix with unusual clarity, even if the soundman doesn't quite get your levels high enough or if you're unmic'ed and have to compete with a crowded mix. Yet, it stays sweet and pleasant when you're "too loud" as well! Well then. It seems as though I need it! Agreed! I wanted to also mention that the Z 1x12 combo cab (if you're thinkin' combo) is probably the biggest, most open and least boxy one I've played or owned...and, you should hear the M12 through a Germino 4x12 with Scumback M75-PVCs!
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 5, 2012 19:53:26 GMT -7
I'd like to hear from you guys who didn't like the Greenback with the M12. I just ordered one and it has the stock speaker in it. I wanted a Blue but couldn't afford it at the moment.
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Post by cap217 on Jul 31, 2013 11:43:49 GMT -7
Not to my ears.....more like Princeton reverb (without reverb of course) cleans, less pronounced mids, with plenty of sparkle. Not saying it's exactly like that but way closer then the Vox sound IMO. What do some of you other guy's think ? I, too, will agree with Frankie--as soon as I plugged into the M12 1x10 combo (w/ Z-10" speaker) at Mike's house last month, I immediately looked up and said, "This could take the place of a (really good) Princeton." So, IMO, if that's what you want... get the 1 x Z-10" combo. That being said... Princeton or VOX or whatever... it still sounded fantastic through 2xBlues (and reportedly 1xGold as well, or so says Mike). I keep hearing about Mike's place in MI. How people go there and play stuff and hang out and drive there. Is Mike Dr Z? Or is this a different Mike?
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Post by Jefferson on Jul 31, 2013 12:01:12 GMT -7
as to the original question...i bought a carl martin AC tone pedal and i now get amazing vox tones through the M12. running mine through a gold, so that doesnt hurt either.
remember, a clean pedal platform can be made to sound like lots of cool things with the right pedals and with many pedal builders now focusing on the "amp in a box" concept the time has never been better to have one amp mimic many others.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Jul 31, 2013 14:02:22 GMT -7
I keep hearing about Mike's place in MI. How people go there and play stuff and hang out and drive there. Is Mike Dr Z? Or is this a different Mike? No, different Mike—it's "jaguarguy" on this forum. He lives in Ann Arbor, has lots of nice Z-amps, and is a very gracious host. Check the "Z-fest" folder on this forum and you'll see where he (and Todd & Steve) helped organize some weekend festivities recently; Dr. Z himself (and grandson Carmen) even drove up to hang out.
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