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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Jun 18, 2012 2:53:23 GMT -7
Guys, those of you getting an M12 and already owning a Z28, can you do a head to head (when you get the time?). As a die hard fan of the Z28, I am twitching to hear the differences between these two! Are they different enough to be a good A/B amp rig? Or are they ideal stereo partners? Does the wattage difference lead to a massive volume difference to render stereo use not viable? Enquiring minds want to know.......... (Mike, are you listening buddy?? )
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Post by doctorice on Jun 18, 2012 4:23:08 GMT -7
Enquiring minds want to know.......... (Mike, are you listening buddy?? ) ;D M12 expected today. Extending listening plan includes: M12, MAZ 8, Ghia, Z-28 and 65 Amps Ventura. You're welcome here any time, Pete. I will say the Z-28 is a tough one to knock off the gig roster. I was running it with BL @ 3 and Volume around 10 (o'clock) Saturday in a small bar. It sounded glorious with the Les Paul.
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Post by boptometrist on Jun 18, 2012 8:30:17 GMT -7
Yes! I'm sure all of us small head/combo guys are looking forward to it.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Jun 18, 2012 12:21:09 GMT -7
Enquiring minds want to know.......... (Mike, are you listening buddy?? ) ;D M12 expected today. Extending listening plan includes: M12, MAZ 8, Ghia, Z-28 and 65 Amps Ventura. You're welcome here any time, Pete. I will say the Z-28 is a tough one to knock off the gig roster. I was running it with BL @ 3 and Volume around 10 (o'clock) Saturday in a small bar. It sounded glorious with the Les Paul. You're killing me Mike!!
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Post by Jefferson on Jun 18, 2012 12:36:18 GMT -7
Mike,
I have been nominated by the group to ask you politely if you would kindly put off all your other plans for the next 12 hours or so and devote yourself to the M12, both playing it and writing up your extensive report.
Not sure why i got nominated for this, but there it is.
Seriously, we are all really looking forward to your thoughts on this amp.
thanks in advance.
JR
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Post by doctorice on Jun 18, 2012 15:33:26 GMT -7
Plans? What plans? ;D
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Post by Maddog on Jun 18, 2012 16:15:45 GMT -7
^^^^ I can feel that grin on yer face from here, Mike!!!!!
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Post by Sean on Jun 18, 2012 19:00:16 GMT -7
Mike, I have been nominated by the group to ask you politely if you would kindly put off all your other plans for the next 12 hours or so and devote yourself to the M12, both playing it and writing up your extensive report. Not sure why i got nominated for this, but there it is. Seriously, we are all really looking forward to your thoughts on this amp. thanks in advance. JR Ditto.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 18, 2012 19:00:38 GMT -7
(Duplicate of my post under OFD is now NAD!) ;D ;D ;D ;D It's wonderful! I just played for at least an hour using only the EC Strat straight in. I don't think I've ever heard that guitar sound better through any amp I ran the amp into the 10" Red Fang in the Z-28 combo. First impressions: 1. On the Lo input setting with the tone knobs below noon the amp stays pretty clean even with the amp and guitar volume maxed. 2. Because the amp stays clean the effect of the active tone controls is dramatic, probably more so than on the Z-28. (The '28 does not stay clean with the volume knob cranked ) You can really dial in a large array of tones and then work the guitar knobs to do a whole lot. I suppose that's what we expect from Dr Z but, still, it's really seductive. 3. Using the Hi input setting lets the amp go into overdrive in a very controlled fashion. I could hear the EL84 compression clearly. Retains all the dynamics. 4. There is a lot of almost chime. "Almost" because I haven't compared it to the MAZs with their Cut controls. To me, those amps really can chime. 5. I started with the Brake Lite on 3. It sounded great. Then I shut the BL down. Holy smokes, Batman The RF is quite efficient, and this amp was plenty loud. I would be tempted to run it without a Brake Lite and use the volume control on the amp if I needed to tame the output for a venue. Ideally, though, I'd dime the volume, use the Lo input setting and work my guitar volume. Of course, the amp cranked up pretty high on the Hi input setting probably would mandate a BL in many places. 6. I didn't try any pedals yet, but I'm pretty confident they will sound great. That's all for now. Oh, one more thing: if you play this amp, you will want it. Trust me, I'm a doctor. Read more: ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=m12&action=display&thread=50067#ixzz1yCUWsJna
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Post by doctorice on Jun 26, 2012 10:14:40 GMT -7
I have begun to "work" on comparing the M12 and Z-28 in a somewhat objective way. They're both running into the 1x10 Red Fang in the Z-28 combo cab via a Radial Headbone. I probably will shift to other speakers later.
For this first phase, I have been running things clean. I matched the output levels by ear; will check that with a meter soon. The M12 input switch is in Hi. The tone knobs were kept, for now, below noon so that their active gain aspect was not involved.
EC Strat used. Midboost turned off. Volume mostly just dimed. Tone knob on 5, which is supposedly equivalent to "all the way up" on a normal Strat. Volume knobs kept pretty low so the EC wasn't pushing the amps into real OD.
I tried to match the amp's sounds. This is, of course, subjective. Starting from the same setting (about 11 o'clock) on all four tone knobs, I dialed the M12 T down and left B alone. On the '28 I left T alone and dialed B all the way down before bringing it up a little, sort of how some folks dial in Bass on a MAZ. (Z-28 Volume knob was lower than M12's to get same apparent output level.)
Impressions:
1. The real high end sounded like it was about the same in level and response in both amps. Now, my hearing is pretty aged and there may have been differences at frequencies that I no longer hear well.
2. An initial reaction of mine from when I first got the M12 was that the M!2 had more of an upper mid focus and the '28 a lower mid focus. This view held up.
3. The '28 has a little more "fat" to its sound, sort of like rich ice cream. The M12 carries more "ice", sort of like a gelato. Both good!
4. I found it impossible to like one sound better than the other. I played all kinds of licks -- well, within my limited repertoire and staying in the clean zone -- and after a second or two of ear adjustment, each amp's sound and tone were appealing.
5. Amp feel was similar. No surprise given EF86 front ends.
I hope to record some of this as well as further explorations.
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Post by jesslm02 on Jun 26, 2012 10:43:39 GMT -7
Ice cream and gelato! Love it! Lol.
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Post by Stan on Jun 26, 2012 10:45:58 GMT -7
Ice cream and gelato! Love it! Lol. i was hoping for a flavor or a color to go with the cool description
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Post by doctorice on Jun 26, 2012 10:54:03 GMT -7
Ice cream and gelato! Love it! Lol. i was hoping for a flavor or a color to go with the cool description Z-28: chocolate ice cream M12: raspberry gelato You could eat 'em both from the same bowl. I would ;D
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Post by Stan on Jun 26, 2012 11:18:37 GMT -7
i was hoping for a flavor or a color to go with the cool description Z-28: chocolate ice cream M12: raspberry gelato You could eat 'em both from the same bowl. I would ;D now my Synesthesia has kicked in
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Post by smolder on Jun 26, 2012 11:23:53 GMT -7
please stop... i haven't even had time to get to know the maz8... and I'm pretty fanatical about the z28... this is sure to cost me more money ; /
(I actually do very much appreciate the insights and early reports)
.
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Post by mazmaster on Jun 26, 2012 11:36:55 GMT -7
I have begun to "work" on comparing the M12 and Z-28 in a somewhat objective way. They're both running into the 1x10 Red Fang in the Z-28 combo cab via a Radial Headbone. I probably will shift to other speakers later. For this first phase, I have been running things clean. I matched the output levels by ear; will check that with a meter soon. The M12 input switch is in Hi. The tone knobs were kept, for now, below noon so that their active gain aspect was not involved. EC Strat used. Midboost turned off. Volume mostly just dimed. Tone knob on 5, which is supposedly equivalent to "all the way up" on a normal Strat. Volume knobs kept pretty low so the EC wasn't pushing the amps into real OD. I tried to match the amp's sounds. This is, of course, subjective. Starting from the same setting (about 11 o'clock) on all four tone knobs, I dialed the M12 T down and left B alone. On the '28 I left T alone and dialed B all the way down before bringing it up a little, sort of how some folks dial in Bass on a MAZ. (Z-28 Volume knob was lower than M12's to get same apparent output level.) Impressions: 1. The real high end sounded like it was about the same in level and response in both amps. Now, my hearing is pretty aged and there may have been differences at frequencies that I no longer hear well. 2. An initial reaction of mine from when I first got the M12 was that the M!2 had more of an upper mid focus and the '28 a lower mid focus. This view held up. 3. The '28 has a little more "fat" to its sound, sort of like rich ice cream. The M12 carries more "ice", sort of like a gelato. Both good! 4. I found it impossible to like one sound better than the other. I played all kinds of licks -- well, within my limited repertoire and staying in the clean zone -- and after a second or two of ear adjustment, each amp's sound and tone were appealing. 5. Amp feel was similar. No surprise given EF86 front ends. I hope to record some of this as well as further explorations. I did a very similar thing with my M12 1x12 combo against my Allen Accomplice 1x12 combo (BFDR style), testing straight in and with pedals, and I would use very similar adjectives for my experience. The high mid focus of the M12 was the thing that jumped out for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 11:37:20 GMT -7
Nice to hear your thoughts comparing the two Mike. Z28 is on my must have list now, along with a CG. tom
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Post by doctorice on Jun 26, 2012 13:43:01 GMT -7
^^^
tom, a Z-28 would be a superb addition to your set of Zs, as would a CG.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 26, 2012 18:05:44 GMT -7
Update to my impressions post:
I checked the output level with a meter. I did have it pretty well matched.
Interestingly, and probably not a surprise, when both amps' volumes are maxed, there isn't a big difference in level. However, with the tone settings I had the volume at noon on the M12 produced the approximate output level of the Z-28 at 10 o'clock. That makes sense because the M12 is designed to stay clean as part of its pedal platform theme.
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Post by markT on Jun 26, 2012 18:58:46 GMT -7
Thanks for the reviews Mike. Let's me know a Z 28 is the one I need.
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Post by djc (Dave) on Jun 26, 2012 19:01:57 GMT -7
Mike, Thanks for the great review! I have to ask what are the major difference's between the two? inquiring minds (short for, about to pull the trigger) want to know Dave
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Post by pcns on Jun 27, 2012 5:27:53 GMT -7
as always Mike, nice work on the comparison. I did not get to play a M12 and Z28 next to each other but my impressions to reflect what have so nicely detailed. The Z28 is a bit more muscular in sound while the M12 has the chime vibe going for it but while keeping a nice bottom end to it. Both amps are punchy and crisp in their responce. I always liked my Z28 with a light overdrive in front of it (Fat Penguin) and it would always clean up so nice with guitar volume. good work Mike, way to go!! Todd
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Post by doctorice on Jun 27, 2012 5:38:40 GMT -7
Mike, Thanks for the great review! I have to ask what are the major difference's between the two? inquiring minds (short for, about to pull the trigger) want to know Dave Dave: In addition to what I've noted above, I'd say the Z-28 sounds gainier, which it is, and barks a little harder, especially with higher knob settings. A little fatter sounding, probably reflecting the lower midrange emphasis, but has sparkle in the high end if you dial it in. M12 is leaner in the lower mids, more prominent in the upper mids. Makes the high end seem a little more defined than the Z-28. Can get a nice jangle going, but not quite chimey, imo. Crisp sounding. With tone knobs set below noon and Lo input gain selected, the M12 stays pretty clean even with the Volume dimed. Like Todd, I usually run light OD into the Z-28 and keep V fairly low. Haven't yet determined what the "gig rig" for the M12 will be. Hope that helps.
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Post by djc (Dave) on Jun 27, 2012 5:56:53 GMT -7
^^^^ Oh Yes that answers my questions, except one? I'm now guessing that this just might make the perfect double amp rig?
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Post by Brian on Jun 27, 2012 6:26:30 GMT -7
I want to hear how it compares to the Maz 8 or Maz 18.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 27, 2012 9:03:19 GMT -7
^^^^ Oh Yes that answers my questions, except one? I'm now guessing that this just might make the perfect double amp rig? It depends on how loud you need the cleans to be, both absolute and relative, assuming that cleans are the M12's task. I'd say if you usually are playing with Brake Lites (absolute output "low" ) then you probably could get a good relative balance by combining amp volume settings with BL levels. Put another way, I think you could have cleans from the M12 at the same spl as a dirty '28. I suspect the M12 would be out of clean gas if it was paired with an unbraked '28 running at 3-3-3 I suppose tube tweaks could also affect this.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Jun 27, 2012 15:17:30 GMT -7
^^^ There's not much in the low wattage range that can hang with a Z28 on 3-3-3 un-Braked! M12 sounds like a lovely amp, and with decent pedals, a GREAT and lovely amp! I'll stick with the rich creamy chocolate ice cream though, if I may say so ;D
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Post by markT on Jun 27, 2012 17:55:50 GMT -7
I'll stick with the rich creamy chocolate ice cream though, if I may say so ;D I'm thinkin about some rich, creamy chocolate ice cream tones myself Pete! ;D Been listening to you guys gush for way too long~
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Post by doctorice on Jun 28, 2012 4:36:45 GMT -7
A bit of raspberry gelato is nice on a hot summer day.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Jul 3, 2012 6:55:11 GMT -7
^^^ If we ever get a hot summer day, I'll let you know! I'm actually thinking the M12 would be perfect with an LP, and keep the Z28 for the single coilers......... hmm, just mulling that one over............
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