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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 11:16:10 GMT -7
I'm am looking for good info about the set up that guitar players use for live guitar tones. I'm talking about micing (recommended mics), mic pre's (if any), amp simulators (again, if any), and/or compression.
I basically mic the speaker cab, and that goes to a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2. I use the mic that the engineer prefers. I think it's a shure sm58, not positive though. We use the mic pres that are on the board. It was suggested to me that maybe some compression would be good to use. The sound coming through my wedge is much more distorted and harsh than what the amp and cab sound like to me.
We would like to record at some point. Any recommendations will be appreciated.
Thanks, Doug
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 13:28:32 GMT -7
anyone?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 13:43:05 GMT -7
Live sound is "sound reinforcement". Augmenting the sound you have. The house guy is gonna need different frequencies than you would in your monitor. It's very complicated and interactive. Everything matters. Amp up/amp on floor. So many things.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 20:02:25 GMT -7
The engineer and his daughter have been playing local bluegrass festivals. I feel as though I can trust him. Which is a good thing. I bought a Royer 121 and he told me that it is not going to make much of a difference in the house. Reason being, that my amp is already fairly loud. Although I'm constantly being told the exact opposite by many patrons. The only wedge on the stage is for me. Everyone else is using Aviom in-ear monitors. The only one I have to compete with is the drummer and he's in a drum condom (w/no top). The only reason I have a wedge is because I have meniere's disease. Headphones put me into vertigo. I have a amp coffin but don't use it because the tone of my guitar in the monitor is horrible. However if Todd asks me to use it I will. I WAS the one who asked for it to be built.
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Post by Maddog on May 18, 2012 20:54:19 GMT -7
^^^^^ Congrats on crossing the 5K, bro!!!!
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Post by doctorice on May 19, 2012 5:04:22 GMT -7
Hey doc001, congrats on the new star arrangement!
Can't help you much because we generally aren't playing places where we need to mic the amps. When we do need that reinforcement, if we're doing it ourselves, I use a Shure SM57. (I have a Sennheiser 609 also but I haven't had a chance to use it live yet.) For gigs with a sound guy, it varies. SM57s are popular, but I've seen other mics stuck in front of my gear. Not sure what they were, though. I'll look more closely next time.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2012 7:44:15 GMT -7
Thanks for the 5k comments. Wish I was in shape t run one, but that's a whole other story.
doc - From the sound man's comments and remarks from patrons, I'm not sure that the mic is being used at all. I have an SM57 which I've used in the past, but have been told that it is too harsh. Okay, fine. So I bought an e906. The current engineer says it's not a guitar mic. Finally after spending $1000 on a Royer 121, he tells me it will only make a difference in the in-ears, because I'm not being put in the house much. That's fine too, 'cuz I can turn up. When I use the iso box, the guitar disappears from the mix in the house altogether. (where is benttop when I need him?)
The thing is, when I mic the amp with the Royer or any mic for that matter, when I listen through the in-ears, my guitar sound IS NOT very pleasing. I guess we'll have to work through the issues. Could be mic placement, could be the engineers don't know how to eq, or maybe it's a combination of these things.
If you haven't guessed, I play in a church. We seat about 300. I was their first electric guitar ever just several years ago. I'm trying to drag them, with help from the music director, in to the 21st century. Gotta' get the engineers to listen to the songs we are covering. That way they will know how the songs are supposed to sound. Heck, I've gotta listen to learn my parts. They (the engineers) should be listening to learn the songs too.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2012 8:11:00 GMT -7
The problem is EQ. For what you need you don't need (in your monitor) a full range sound. Have the guy EQ out some of the top.
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Post by jayb on May 19, 2012 8:20:42 GMT -7
In terms of loudness, there is a big difference between an overall fat sound and a treble, chucking razor blades at the audience sound. With a good fat and well balanced mix, you can push a lot more volume without blowing people away and hurting their ears.
The key is having the sound balanced within the band so each instrument is covering the appropriate part of the tonal spectrum. Then you can run your amp at a suitable volume and the sound man can blend in whatever amount to compensate. Especially if you are using an ISO box.
Use the ribbon mic! They are great and it will make a difference if you have a sound man that knows what he's doing. I find a good ribbon sits in the mix a lot better and with a lot less EQ adjustment. Typically monitors don't reproduce guitar sounds as pleasing as the low-fi guitar amp speakers, but it shouldn't be distorted. You either have too much input signal from the mic, a bad peaked out EQ or he's just sending way to much signal to the monitor and it can't handle it. The only type of compression that might help is limiting compression.
In all honesty you probably have a sound man that doesn't know what he's doing. If you get a chance sometime, go into the venue and experiment mic'ing up your own amp. It's hard to get exact volume levels without the rest of the band because that changes but at least you will get a feel for what sounds good and what EQ compensations or amp volume you need. It's a tough situation to be in so handle the sound man gently, even if he does suck at his job. Try and work with him and make suggestions in as nice a manner as possible.
Hope it helps.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2012 9:03:51 GMT -7
The problem is EQ. For what you need you don't need (in your monitor) a full range sound. Have the guy EQ out some of the top. Thanks, roscoe. Will do. I appreciate the help.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2012 9:43:42 GMT -7
In terms of loudness, there is a big difference between an overall fat sound and a treble, chucking razor blades at the audience sound. With a good fat and well balanced mix, you can push a lot more volume without blowing people away and hurting their ears. I am told by most listeners that the guitar is not very loud in the mix. Some say I need to turn up. I really don't want to. It should be the sound guy turning me up in the house. Without a vocal mic I can sing louder than the stage mix, and be heard in the house. The key is having the sound balanced within the band so each instrument is covering the appropriate part of the tonal spectrum. Then you can run your amp at a suitable volume and the sound man can blend in whatever amount to compensate. Especially if you are using an ISO box. My thoughts exactly. Use the ribbon mic! They are great and it will make a difference if you have a sound man that knows what he's doing. I find a good ribbon sits in the mix a lot better and with a lot less EQ adjustment. Typically monitors don't reproduce guitar sounds as pleasing as the low-fi guitar amp speakers, but it shouldn't be distorted. You either have too much input signal from the mic, a bad peaked out EQ or he's just sending way to much signal to the monitor and it can't handle it. The only type of compression that might help is limiting compression. I would love to use the ribbon mic. I'm not sure the mic pre in the desk are good enough though. I'm gonna save up for a good pre. The engineer seems to be more comfortable with whatever mic he is using at this point. Band members with the in-ears are actually turning the guitar up in their mix. They were not doing that with the other mics I've used. And from what I was hearing, I couldn't blame them. In all honesty you probably have a sound man that doesn't know what he's doing. If you get a chance sometime, go into the venue and experiment mic'ing up your own amp. It's hard to get exact volume levels without the rest of the band because that changes but at least you will get a feel for what sounds good and what EQ compensations or amp volume you need. It's a tough situation to be in so handle the sound man gently, even if he does suck at his job. Try and work with him and make suggestions in as nice a manner as possible. Hope it helps. A couple of the guys who mix, admit that they don't know what they are doing. I get that. I try to help them w/out being pushy. They are volunteers after all. Most people won't step up to help. It's not a paying gig. So I tip my hat to them. It's a work in progress. And hey, I'm no Greg V. myself. I have plenty of room for improvement. We all have one very important thing in common. We want it to sound good, great even. I've been wanting to do exactly what you suggested, Especially with the Royer. I want to work on mic placement and EQ. Making time to get together with the head engineer to work on this is my goal. Thanks for the suggestions, all. I'll take more if anyone cares to share their experience.
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Post by zpilot on May 22, 2012 22:28:36 GMT -7
Yes. It sounds like your sound guys don't really know what they are doing. I'm the sound engineer (paid position) at a large church with a contemporary service and I have been running sound for 40+ years. Everyone seems pleased with our mix. Here is basically how I run the electric guitar. SM57 slightly off axis or Senn e906 dead center. Both are great mics for guitar cabinets. I prefer the e906. Spending more on mics for live sound is a waste of money. Our guitar player uses a closed-back cabinet and I have it facing backwards (away from the congregation) and angled up toward him. He has a wedge also but I don't put any guitar in it, only vocals and whatever other instruments he requests. It sounds like the aux send for your monitor is pre-EQ and that may be the reason it sounds harsh. It's also important that the input be properly attenuated. This is pretty basic stuff but I'm amazed how many "sound guys" don't know how to properly do it. The mic pre-amps in any quality live sound mixer are perfectly adequate for electric guitar. They just need to be set right. Make sure they have read the manual on this. When the cabinet is facing backwards sometimes the mic will need to be 180 degrees out-of-phase to minimize phase cancellation of the reflected sound and the FOH mix. The FOH eq for your channel will also need to have some low end rolled off. I only use compression when absolutely necessary on the guitar so I can preserve the dynamics. I have trained several volunteers to run the board and I have learned that it is difficult to understand how to mix and eq without having a "musicians ear". Try having the sound guy stand next to you during a rehearsal so he can hear what you are hearing and understand what needs to be adjusted. Also, learn what frequencies affect what so you can communicate specifically what you want changed. Like "Cut 3dB's above 6K" instead of "It sounds too harsh". Hope this helps.
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Post by byrdland on May 23, 2012 4:25:01 GMT -7
Yep, sound guy doesn't know what he's doing. A good sound engineer will do his best to make you comfortable. Personally, I hate the sound of my guitar coming through a monitor wedge. I don't care for it in-ear either, but put up with it to keep stage volume down. It sounds like he's not putting the guitar signal in the FOH mix, just putting it in the monitors, without doing much eq'ing.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 18:10:47 GMT -7
Thanks for the suggestion, zpilot and byrdland. That's more good info. I definitely need to learn some terminology so that I can let him know what is needed.
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