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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Nov 30, 2006 7:57:45 GMT -7
...and I lost my tone. I've heard you need to have higher action on a strat to get that "great" tone and I guess that might be the case. However, I use 11's and the guitar tends to fight me a little bit so I decided to try it. Maybe it's a little too low and I can find a happy medium.
Before I monkey around any more I'd like to get some input from others with more experience.
Thanks.
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Post by Paul (TRANE) on Nov 30, 2006 8:51:52 GMT -7
I recently did the same adjustment to my strat and the tone is still there. I use 11s as well and found that going to 4/64" on string height did not impact the tone. I also recently reset the action on my Les Paul to 3/64" and the tone stayed on that one as well. I used to run the Low E at 6/64" minimum and the High E at 4/64 or higher. Now, it did take some tweaking of the pickup heights to keep the tone but, to my ears, it is still all there on both guitars.
Paul G.
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Post by Danny on Nov 30, 2006 8:53:51 GMT -7
I believe what's critical here is not the action, per se, but the distance between the pickup poles and the strings. If that distance is too small or too large it will affect the tone quality (and volume and other parameters as well). If you lower the action you'll have to lower the height of the pickups an equal amount. You may wish to talk to a good guitar tech, or get a good manual on guitar maintenance, to find out ideal gaps between PUs and strings.
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Post by mudskipper on Nov 30, 2006 13:19:22 GMT -7
it's also the tension from my experience.
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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Dec 1, 2006 11:29:50 GMT -7
Thanks for the input guys. I lowered the pickup heights and that did the trick. What a relief! I still have my tone and it's easier to play. My fingers are all grins! ;D
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 1, 2006 20:51:20 GMT -7
Things were going well till you tried the 11's?
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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Dec 1, 2006 21:49:21 GMT -7
tele1962, I've had the 11's on for a little over a year and I love the way they thicken things up, but the action has been killin' my left hand. I've found myself playing my other guitar (with 10's) that has much lower action and enjoying it's playability. Unfortunately, it's pretty sterile sounding and much less enjoyable to play. So, I was hoping for the best of both worlds. Hopefully I'm there
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 4, 2006 18:43:53 GMT -7
Let me plug Z Amps shamelessly here. The richer, fatter tones you get with great amps like the Z, often precludes a person from having to go the route of heavier strings. If we can bolster our sound, fatten it up if you will, and still play a set of strings that is comfortable and puts less tension on a guitar neck, then it's a win-win for all. Z amps ( along with other boutique Mfg's) have allowed this to happen. Good tone doesn't neccessarily come from playing barbed wire.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 4, 2006 18:52:24 GMT -7
I concur with that statement...but for me, anything less than 11s is too weak. Maybe it's because I'm a bit heavy handed so when I dig in I don't want the strings vibrating so hard that the pitch changes. There are still times where I feel 11s aren't quite enough but 12s are definitely too heavy (a .024 gauge 3rd string? No way!).
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Post by tjstrat on Dec 4, 2006 19:14:38 GMT -7
I have some carpal tunnel, and a probably a little neuropathy from diabetes, so heavy gauges are out of the question, just because of physical considerations. I think Dada's lead guitarist used to play heavy gauges until he almost crippled himself with RSI. I realize that everyone has their opinions and that they know what they want to hear from their rigs, but .009s have to work for me, especially with Fender scale instruments.
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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Dec 4, 2006 19:26:28 GMT -7
tele1962 and skydog958,
I am due for a string change and I may just try a set of 10's per your comments. Thanks and I'll let you know how it goes.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 4, 2006 19:35:49 GMT -7
I think you'll notice the difference immediately.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 5, 2006 7:07:19 GMT -7
A good way to reduce tension is to straighten the neck with the truss rod. Eric Johnson, Jeff beck and Duke Robillard like their necks straight so give it a try if you haven't yet.
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Post by mward on Dec 5, 2006 9:55:47 GMT -7
I just put 13s on my strat and love the sound. It's very fat. Yes, having a dr z gives you a fat tone, but fat tone and fat strings is fat tone squared! *edit* - you know why srv made those faces when he was playing? I do now. I wouldn't run a neck dead flat. Give it a little relief or you'll have issues. Stick a capo on at the first fret and hold it down at the 17th, measure the distance under the string at the 7th fret with a feeler gauge and get it somewhere between .007 and .015 by adjusting the trussrod. SMALL ADJUSTMENTS! 1/4 turn is a lot, and if it's real hard to turn, don't mess with it. Some people loosen the strings before adjusting too. FWIW - Jeff Beck runs his neck with .007 relief, SRV ran .015.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 5, 2006 13:15:16 GMT -7
I read Beck starts a tour at .007 and then takes the relief out, I believe it was in Dan Erlewine's book. I may be wrong. If you can play 13s and use a .007 to .015 relief you must have arms like Popeye! I usually set mine mine with probably .001 or .002 of relief, works great. I never tried one dead straight but Erlewine said EJ and Robillard set them up that way. If it works for them it can't be all bad! I've been looking for that book in my house and I haven't found it yet but it was in the "reading" room and I perused it regularly. I do know that less relief and strings as low as possible in the nut will give the least amount of stirng tension which is what this thread was about originally.
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 5, 2006 20:43:34 GMT -7
I can remember my dad, years back, insisting that heavy strings were the only ticket to good tone. Now with arthritis in his hands, but still wanting to play, he's gone to lighter strings. That old Martin he's got has never sounded more balanced low to high, more toneful and vibrant. Good instruments and dogs don't need to be beaten to get them to perform.
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Post by mward on Dec 6, 2006 7:35:11 GMT -7
Erlewine's book is where I was getting the info from. IIRC (I don't have it sitting here in front of me) Jeff used .007, I don't recall him taking it out but I could be misremembering. I've had guitars set dead flat before and they don't play right (to me). I checked my strat last night and there is .012 relief. I don't feel like I have popeye arms. The only time the 13 is really bad is when I try for a 2 step bend. Then it hurts and you get to make those faces. It might be useful to note that the string tension is the same, the perceived tension on your fingers changes because you don't have to push it down as far.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 6, 2006 9:07:05 GMT -7
That's true, the tension is in fact the same BUT it's the perceived tension that matters for me. Less is better for me, I'm a wuss. I can't do the 13s, I use an .011, .013, .017, .030, .042 and .052, I also tune to A440.
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Post by mward on Dec 6, 2006 10:48:42 GMT -7
You gotta work up to em. I run 11s on my tele and after playing the strat it's like the strings are limp noodles. I usually tune to Eb although the strat is at E right now because my wife didn't want to detune her bass. Man, 1/2 step makes a big difference in the pain factor.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 6, 2006 19:10:41 GMT -7
I noticed that if I'm doing forearm strengh exercises regularly the strings feel REALLY light even for 11s. But I have a question--is there a point where the strings are so girthy that you lose the softer dynamics? When I had 12s on my V the strings didn't seem to put out enough unless I really whacked 'em, else they barely vibrated. This was more prevalent higher on the neck where it seemed the thicker strings didn't sustain right.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 6, 2006 19:31:40 GMT -7
I don't know about softer dynamics but they will start sounding "wrong".
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Post by Ryan (shorty) on Dec 11, 2006 19:54:19 GMT -7
I made the change to 10's last week and at first I didn't like them. I have 10's on my other guitar and it feels "right", but it didn't on the Strat. Instead of being stubborn and changing the strings right away, I put it down and decided to try it again later. The next day I made a few adjustments and tried it out again. All I can say is I was wrong. A little of the thickness and grit was gone, but not enough to go back to 11's. I also have to say how much I love the combination of my Strat and Jr. The clean out-of-phase tone always puts a big smile on my face ;D and when I step on both the Keeley Blues Driver and TS-9......WOW! To me that's a magical combination. Thanks again to everyone for your input.
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 16, 2006 10:54:22 GMT -7
"The next day I made a few adjustments and tried it out again. All I can say is I was wrong. A little of the thickness and grit was gone, but not enough to go back to 11's."
"Good instruments and dogs don't need to be beaten to get them to perform."
You'll be fine !
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Post by mward on Dec 17, 2006 17:39:08 GMT -7
"Good instruments and dogs don't need to be beaten to get them to perform." I can't figure out why you keep posting that. It's almost a slam on people who run heavier strings, as if there is something wrong with them, comparing it to beating a dog. Would you have told SRV he was too hard on his guitars? Compared him to an animal beater?
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 17, 2006 17:56:18 GMT -7
He doesn't mean it that way. All he's saying is if it works for you then use whatever gauge feels good.
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Post by mward on Dec 17, 2006 18:13:38 GMT -7
Ah you know the internet, can't hear someone's tone of voice.
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 17, 2006 20:33:26 GMT -7
mward, thanks for your input! Billy's pretty much got me figured out, and he's right. Not ever meaning to offend anyone at all. Especially the late SRV! He had incredibly strong hands, and I certainly could never do what he did. About the saying? It's got a bit of truth to it, and that is that as time has gone by, materials have maybe gotten better, strings, guitars, amplifiers ( Z amps are a good example for all of us) . In all these things getting better, at least to some degree, obtaining good tone is easier to come by with the right gear than ever before. Eric Clapton said many years ago that he and Jack Bruce had to sing so HARD to put enough front end volume into the mics to be heard. Today's systems do with ease what use to be painful and stressfull. Maybe that makes more sense than the dog analogy??!
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Post by mward on Dec 19, 2006 10:03:55 GMT -7
It's true the gear is getting better, and thanks for the clarification. The thicker strings sound different, not that thinner ones sound bad, just to my ears I like that girthier tone but I also have a pretty heavy pick attack too. Anything under an 11 gets broken in short order.
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Post by tele1962 on Dec 21, 2006 16:15:10 GMT -7
Again, if you're breaking strings, maybe you're just hitting them too hard...and you don't need to? You can be a very heavy player, and not ever break strings.
Years ago, Pete Townsend was asked if he broke strings on his arm- whirl motions, and he replied that he " almost never broke strings at all. The thing that people see if all this motion, and they assume I beat the %$ out of my strings and guitar. I don't. The attack on my strings is actually measured and sometimes has a nice touch to it, really. I have some very loud amplifiers that do the rest"
That surprised me a bit. I was one of those that thought he would break strings! Anyone know what gauge he uses?
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 21, 2006 16:29:57 GMT -7
I read it was .050something to .022s on the top end! Actually he used .022s on both the high E and B strings. Rediculous!
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