|
Post by nitehawk55 on Jul 2, 2006 6:49:19 GMT -7
I was looking at ebay last night and noticed some Strats and Teles from the mid 70's are bringing big $$'s !! I don't want to insult anyone on here if they own one but my feeling was and still is that the build quality of Fenders in that time period was very poor . Why are they bringing so much now ?...because they are 30 years old ? Time sure hasn't made any improvements to what they were back then or ever will be IMHO and I don't think they are worth what some are getting for them now .
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 2, 2006 8:08:03 GMT -7
It's just the vintage conundrum. 1950s Fenders got expensive so guys started going after the '60s guitars. They got too high so now they're buying '70s ones. 10 years it'll be the '80s. Everyone knows the 70's was a bad time for every manufacturer. I seriously think a Hecho en Mexico Fender is better on average than 99% of the '70s Fenders. If you have one or can get one cheap, enjoy the profit but for practical purposes buy a new guitar. Guys actively buying vintage pieces and players aren't the same people. I'll let them do their thing and when the time comes I'll take advantage of them and sell my stuff for maximum profit.
|
|
|
Post by skydog958 on Jul 2, 2006 11:10:04 GMT -7
I was talking about that with a vintage guitar store owner, andI have to agree, it's rediculous. Woods were not prime pieces (heavy), guitar bodies could be up to 5 pieces, and of course poly finishes on everything. They only thing I think they got going is vibe, but only a few of them. Definitely not worth the $$ they are selling for.
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 2, 2006 12:33:20 GMT -7
I was looking at ebay last night and noticed some Strats and Teles from the mid 70's are bringing big $$'s !! I don't want to insult anyone on here if they own one but my feeling was and still is that the build quality of Fenders in that time period was very poor . Why are they bringing so much now ?...because they are 30 years old ? Time sure hasn't made any improvements to what they were back then or ever will be IMHO and I don't think they are worth what some are getting for them now . I had one of those mid-70's Strats - you know the ones - three screws on the neck plate. What a complete hunk of junk. No matter what I did, I could not make that thing into a player. Even having several of the best guitar smiths in the area work on it, new frets, new setups, blah blah blah - it just never played right. I finally palmed it off on some beginner so that I could find a real guitar.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 2, 2006 19:44:23 GMT -7
The difference in guitars is exactly what Billy and others are saying. They were by in large not good in the 70's and 80's The 90's got a bit better. It's the vintage thing catching up with more recent years. A glaring example of what was going on in the 70's on Stratocasters is that they introducted a " bullet truss rod adjustment" at the headstock for ease of access. I found out quickly back then ( and now) that the reason for quick access was frequent access required. The sound of those things was cold, and brittle for some reason, and they didn't play easy a lot of times either.
The Mexican guitars ARE better than the Fenders of the 70 and 80's. Except for 80's MIJ's, which are mostly superb!
If you take inflation into proper accounting, we'd leave the production guitars from Fender alone, and pay Custom Shop prices for really well made Fenders. The price they're asking roughly represents the sacrifice made by our predesessors back in the 50's to buy a fine instrument.
In 1969, gasoline was 24 cents a gallon in the midwest, and a Fender Strat was $320, a new Tele was $283, both came with Fender hardshell cases at that price. Gas is now what? $2.50 a gallon? And it's got less octane than in the 60's! That's a 10X increase.
That means that paying $3000 for a CS Fender instead of buying one for $700 offshore might be the same deal. Keep in mind here folks that Mike Zaite isn't overpriced by any of our admissions here, but a Maz Sr. isn't 300 bucks either!
|
|
|
Post by kc on Jul 3, 2006 8:01:21 GMT -7
Today, there's an article about guitar prices on cnn.com, and they specifically mention 70's Fenders. money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/07/01/8380209/index.htmPickin' and winnin' Prices for classic guitars are soaring. Here's how to cash in on the six-string boom. (Business 2.0 Magazine) -- When Aaron Madsen isn't installing garage door openers or recording aspiring musicians in his home studio, he can often be found poking around in pawnshops, looking for guitars. That's how he scored a beat-up 1974 Fender Stratocaster last October for $400 that he resold a few months later for $1,000. All told, Madsen says, he made $3,500 in recent months buying and selling guitars. And he hasn't even sold his most valuable pieces, such as the 1968 Gibson Les Paul Custom that's appreciated 750 percent to $8,500 in the five years he's owned it. "That's something I'm hoping to put my kid through college with," says Madsen, soon to become a first-time father. The idea of putting a kid through college on a guitar is not as far-fetched as it sounds. The value of guitars - electrics in particular, but acoustics too - is exploding. Consider: A 1960 Gibson Les Paul, the model played by Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page, sold for $192,000 in May at a Christie's auction in New York; had it been a year older, it could have fetched $250,000. A collectors' market The Vintage Guitar Price Guide, the bible of such matters, indexes a collection of 42 guitars it bought in 1991 for $150,000. Today they're worth $540,000 - almost doubling in the past five years. The key driver of this sizzling market: baby boomers with spare cash and a yen for the playthings of their youth, especially the sexy guitars played by their idols. The market is made up of big dealers, big private collectors, newcomers excited about the idea of guitars as investments, and enterprising guys like Madsen. At the high end are those prized Les Pauls, along with 1950s Fender Stratocasters (picture Jimi Hendrix) and Telecasters (Keith Richards), which have soared 50 percent in the past year and command prices in the $40,000 range. Such high-end guitars have risen in price so rapidly that most investors have been priced out of the market. But the lower end remains a fertile plain of opportunity, and that's where Madsen tends to focus. He monitors prices on eBay (Charts), though he's cautious about buying there. He relies heavily on the Vintage Guitar Price Guide, as well as the Blue Book of Electric Guitars and Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Guitars, which provides feature changes by year. Prudent purchases Such knowledge is crucial in this frothy and hence risky market. As an appraiser of instruments, Stan Jay of Mandolin Bros. in Staten Island, N.Y., says he often delivers "the bad news that a guitar purchased for $40,000 was worth only $4,000." (Here's a tip: Spend the $150 for an appraisal up front.) A key part of Madsen's strategy is to try to anticipate tomorrow's in-demand guitars. A few years ago, Madsen noticed an upturn in the market for 1970s Fenders, guitars generally frowned upon because of the poor quality of Fender's mass production during that era. He began scouring pawnshops, music stores, and Craigslist. He picked up three mint-condition Stratocasters - made in 1973, '76, and '79 -for a total of $2,200. Today those guitars could fetch about $6,300. Madsen is also betting on a rise in the value of 1980s American-made guitars from Jackson and B.C. Rich that were staples of heavy-metal bands like Poison, because the teenage headbangers who couldn't afford them then will soon be able to. "I'm trying to scoop up all the ones I can," Madsen says. Madsen plays a mean guitar himself, but you don't have to be a picker to mine the six-string boom. Still, it's critical to buy a guitar that sounds good and has a well-preserved neck. Vintage guitars are functional beauty; they must be authentic and function optimally to increase in value. If you don't have the expertise to buy a good one, get help from someone who does. Otherwise you'll never get near the price in the guides, because a store won't pay top dollar for a guitar that doesn't play easily. And neither will Madsen. -- kc
|
|
|
Post by janinedoubly on Jul 3, 2006 21:01:28 GMT -7
Great info, Kc!!! Its good to bring up the point that time and the gradual "weeding" out process that happens in collectable guitars is key, even to supposedly "crappy" 70's Strats. Yes, I agree, the majority of 70's Strats (or any 70's USA instrument for that matter) is sub par. But, if viewed on a continuum, not ALL 70's Strats are pure crap, just the majority of them. There are some good ones out there (I know, I've played a few), just not as consistent from instrument to instrument, as 50's and 60's Fenders. But, find that good one and its gonna have some value to a collector and a player. There are a lot of folks who lust after David Gilmour, Robin Trower and Ritchie Blackmore style guitars, and they want 70's Strats. The bad ones will not get circulated forever. Eventually, the unplayable and mediocre will hit a value wall. But the good ones will continue to circulate and rise in value.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 6, 2006 21:50:00 GMT -7
Then if that's true, and it may be...70's guitars that survive the weed out process will be the rarest of the rare. There were damn few good ones to start, and there will only be a handful out ther today.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 7, 2006 5:52:59 GMT -7
I'll pass on them unless I can get one cheap to flip. Practically speaking ther are lots of better guitars being made right now. A thick poly finished Strat or a Custom Shop with change left over, let's see......poly eat a cracker, I'll take the good guitar!
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 7, 2006 14:04:11 GMT -7
IMO the custom Shop stuff is getin' better all the time, pricy but I have played some killers as of late, and for some reason they seem to have more soul than my TAG Lookin' at a Inca Silver/Rosewood Tele this week, it is SCREAMIN' my name...........
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 10, 2006 12:29:35 GMT -7
Pricey perhaps, but not in context with today's dollars, quality, and playability. Perspectively, a Fender Custom Shop guitar is no more expensive than a Z Amp. We just don't want to spend good dollars for good guitars it seems, and that's why there's all the goofy questions about swapping parts and creating Frankensteins. I know hundreds of guys today who've given me stupid $$ to polish a turd ( and I've taken it) and over time they've spent twice, or three times all told on lousy guitars with zero resale value, what they could have bought an original vintage piece for. For what one guy I know has spent, he could own a vaulted, mint condition original '59 Les Paul Flame Top. Serious. This is not a clever fellow!
|
|
|
Post by nitehawk55 on Jul 10, 2006 20:33:36 GMT -7
IMO the custom Shop stuff is getin' better all the time, pricy but I have played some killers as of late, and for some reason they seem to have more soul than my TAG Lookin' at a Inca Silver/Rosewood Tele this week, it is SCREAMIN' my name........... I can't say some of the custom shop stuff has impressed me. I think a lot of it is hype and I sure won't pay extra for a relic that they dragged behind a car to make it look old . I've found the American vintage series guitars to my liking as I own both the 52 Tele RI and the 62 Strat RI , both which are done very nice as far as fit and finish . I would like a bit more "umph" in the Tele's neck p-up though . Lots of other makes like G&L and countless others building great Strats and Tele's too although pricey !! I've seen some guy's put a bunch into a POS that will never be worth anything to anyone else but if they like it I guess that's what counts and there are some known artists (past and present) who have just those guitars they call keepers .
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 16, 2006 21:03:20 GMT -7
Nitehawk;
Not all the CS stuff gets dragged behind a car. The NOS is every bit as good, and has all the bright and shinies. I'm talking about build quality, and there is nothing Lentz or Anderson or Bill Crook is doing that's anything better than what the guys at Fender Custom Shop are all about. These should not be confused with production guitars.
I happen to be one that may agree with you. I don't need a guitar to have the crap beat out of the finish to make it "feel at home".
|
|
|
Post by guitarman1 on Jul 17, 2006 6:46:39 GMT -7
I've played a number of custom shop Fenders, but for the money, have not been very impressed. I'll take a Suhr or an Anderson for that kind of price tag.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 19, 2006 12:04:33 GMT -7
Fair enough, but an Anderson is not a Fender. The Fender sound, and feel is still what's being emulated, and in some ways improved upon, or changed. That's why people put boat anchor pickups in Tele style bodies...they want a better Tele? No...what I'm talking here is that Custom Shop does a good job producing the real deal when it comes to Fender guitars. Paul Reed Smiths or Tom Andersons are separate guitars as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 19, 2006 12:11:30 GMT -7
Most everything that is strat-like or tele-like by independent builders is what I would consider to be a distillation and derivation of the real thing with what the builder considers improvements to Fender's design. In that way Curt makes a valid point. Looking at Vintage Guitar last night, one dealer had a 1954 Telecaster for $58K and a Les Paul Special for $28K. Two years agao at an Arlington show a friend sold a 1954 Blackguard Tele in very good (9.5) condition, with a Tweed Princeton for $17,000. INSANE!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by guitarman1 on Jul 20, 2006 6:38:49 GMT -7
Fair enough, but an Anderson is not a Fender. The Fender sound, and feel is still what's being emulated, and in some ways improved upon, or changed. That's why people put boat anchor pickups in Tele style bodies...they want a better Tele? No...what I'm talking here is that Custom Shop does a good job producing the real deal when it comes to Fender guitars. Paul Reed Smiths or Tom Andersons are separate guitars as far as I'm concerned. Yeah Curt, I agree that Fender is trying to replicate the old vintage pieces and get close to the old vibe. My complaint is that I've seen some pretty sloppy work on Fender Custom Shop pieces. Also, I recently owned an American '62 Strat re-issue that I bought for around $1000.00 new. It had a very nice vibe and sounded reasonably good. I had the opportunity to compare it side-by-side to a number of Custom Shop Strats and it sounded and felt as good or better than any I tried. My friend who was with me and also the salesman in the shop agreed. Those guitars were $2200.00 or more. I saw a guy in another music store who brought a Custom Shop Strat in to show off. The neck/neck pocket fit was awful. My daughter's Squire has a better fit. When he left, the first thing out of the store owners mouth was "Did you see that sloppy pocket?". The body and neck were not flush at the lower cutaway. The body actually extended out past the neck by almost 1/16 th of an inch and unpainted body wood was visible. My point is that when you get to $2,200.00 and more, the craftsmanship for something from Fender's Custom Shop is not on the same level as Suhr, Grosh, Anderson, etc., etc. You are paying for the "Fender Custom Shop" name and pre-CBS persona.....not for Fender pre-CBS quality. Depending on configuration, certain Suhr and Grosh models can get vintage sounds as good or better than any Fender Custom Shop piece IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by nitehawk55 on Jul 20, 2006 15:58:14 GMT -7
I've seen the same myself guitarman1 and agree 100% . Fender is "marketing" these so called custom shop guitars and using a lot of hype , case candy and certificates signed by the builders to attract buyers . I fully agree there are great custom shop made guitars too but just because it says " Custom Shop " does not make it a top quality made guitar . I'll put G&L up against the custom shop pieces too and my findings were the same with the vintage series Fenders , made very well and another that I own 2 of is the 2004 50th Anv. deluxe Strat.....I love em !! ;D
Not knocking Custom Shop owners BTW , most are fine products . The Relic models still make me wonder why someone would want a fabricated beat up/rusted guitar.....I think it best to own and use one long enough to put your own wear on one .
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 20, 2006 16:14:35 GMT -7
I don't recall what an Anderson Strat style guitar is worth right now? $1200 ??
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 20, 2006 17:45:09 GMT -7
An Anderson for $1,200?
|
|
|
Post by janinedoubly on Jul 21, 2006 18:12:35 GMT -7
It depends on which Anderson model you get. An Anderson Classic with VA pickups is all the Strat you'd want, and more, from a playability stance. There is nothing inherently more "Fender" about a Fender unless the decal has something to do with tone. Sure, from instrument to instrument, there are variations, but Andersons (and Groshes and Suhrs) with vintage specs, will pass any Strat (or Tele) taste test with the real thing. I will say, I long for the days of the original Custom Shop guitars they produced in the CS's infancy. The first run of about 6 guitars I remember playing (and then re-discovering when a few of these guitars came back on trades) were superb in every way. Maybe not spot on "vintage correct" (I remember a '60 Strat that had the wrong era decal. Maybe the extra patent numbers added to its tone?), but beautifully made and the Cunetto relic'ing was very cool. Much more artfully done then what Fender passes for Relic'ing now. And the fit and finish was what you'd expect from a $2000.00 guitar. Too bad the current CS guitars are not as consistant as those beauties were.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 23, 2006 17:40:49 GMT -7
Billy...my tongue is many times in my cheek when I';m asking this type of thing. An Anderson for 1200? Very few of those to be had! Well, no...so it's not a cheap guitar, it's a good guitar. I worked on a Yuri Shiskyn Masterbuilt Strat 4 weeks ago that was easily as good as any Anderson I've ever seen. So now I'm very confused.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 23, 2006 19:11:00 GMT -7
I think there are lots of well made Fender guitars, just not 1970s Fenders. I just hated those thick, soft finishes.
|
|
|
Post by real oldster on Jul 24, 2006 6:17:55 GMT -7
I have a '76 Strat, all natural ash with a wide, U-shaped maple neck. I replaced the pickups and it's a fine guitar. I've never messed with the neck. It plays great. Anything is "worth" what the market will pay for it. IMO
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 24, 2006 9:07:03 GMT -7
The market: That's true! If you have one hang on it'll only go up. If you don't just buy something else, except if you can snag one cheap.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 29, 2006 21:36:13 GMT -7
I'm still confused. I've worked on so many different guitars over the years, mostly set ups on the really nice ones. Gibson and Fender guitars from the 50's and 60's , the nasty 70's and 80's ones too! And the Grosh's , Anderson's, G&L's, etc.
Billy, I'm maybe older like you, I don't know. But I'm not a kid. I own a handful of 50's and 60's guitars and amps. And yes, they're stellar pieces. Here's my source of confusion:
The Shiskyn strat was incredible. A few months earlier I'd done a set up on a John English Masterbuilt Strat. Stunning! Absolutely stunning! And here's the scary part. It didn't sound homomgenous like an Anderson can. Or nondescript like so many boutiques do. Don't get me wrong, the boutique makers make fine guitars that sound great in their own right.
The difference wasn't build quality, finish, selections of woods, functionality. It was the fact these two humble stratocasters sounded EXACTLY right. Not close, not " something like" the tones from the 50's and 60's...exactly on the money.
I was a bit disappointed actually. You see, I own 2- 50's and 2 early 60's Fenders, and every one of them is amazing. Here's the problem. Every time a CS Masterbuilt comes around, it challenges the old girls. I'm beginning to believe these guys actually care. They are proud men, doing proud work. I'd love to knock them because it says "Fender" on the headstock, and on the bridge saddles, but I can't.
And they don't sound homogenous or nondescript. They sound like old tried and true Fenders, and IMHO that can't be a bad thing!
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 30, 2006 4:35:20 GMT -7
I'll be 52 next month. The only two Fenders I have happen to be a couple of Fender Broncos that I bought cheap because i bought an old Fender Bronco amp cheap, thought I'd get a set. I never bought a Tele or a Strat because of those old 7-1/2" radius necks and little frets. Too me they were and are, unusable. Sad for me, I certainly passed on a million of 'em. I do have amps though so at least i have that to be thankful for when it comes time for a sell-off. Oh if I could have invested $50K back even as late as the early '80s I'd be set financially! Back then I was rubbing two nickels together hoping the'd mate and multiply, oh yeah, and a wife that wanted equal perks! That really cut back on my guitar purchasing in those days. Not now, baby!
|
|
|
Post by tjstrat on Jul 30, 2006 7:08:20 GMT -7
Nitehawk; I happen to be one that may agree with you. I don't need a guitar to have the crap beat out of the finish to make it "feel at home". ...and it isn't QUITE the same if it's someone ELSE beating the crap out of that guitar for you, rather than yourself, is it? I've seen Fender's Rory Gallagher guitar and other relic'd Fenders, and while I appreciate the efforts to distress the finish, the lack of real sweat, blood, beer, snot, and human contact just make them a good playing (hopefully) hunk of wood. What makes the beater a wonderful instrument is the cigarette smoke and accidental falls off the stand and the bar fights it's absorbed. No relic'd guitar has any of THAT going for it. I know... Sickeningly romantic POV. Hell, I can't afford any of that stuff anyway, but it's just my $.02...
|
|
|
Post by steveinnashville on Jul 30, 2006 20:16:03 GMT -7
I wonder how much my '74 Martin D-12-20 will be worth in 2024.... not that I'll sell it then...
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 31, 2006 7:56:06 GMT -7
Billy, I'm with you on this one. If I'd only known more back when and had some money then! I'm nearly 52 as well, and have come to appreciate everything just a little more through the years. I'm sorry those Fender necks didn't suit you, but that's OK...everyone's different and that's a wonderful thing! Good job hanging on to the old Fender amps...they're beginning to really appreciate as well.
|
|