|
Post by smolder on Aug 27, 2011 21:54:21 GMT -7
are we splitting hairs? Is there a difference beyond the gain factor?
|
|
David
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by David on Aug 27, 2011 22:41:04 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by smolder on Aug 28, 2011 5:38:45 GMT -7
Awesome - thanks for that. I was thinking it was the 12at7 that was considered unmusical, but apparently only in the first gain stage.
|
|
|
Post by Jan on Aug 28, 2011 15:49:00 GMT -7
Musicality matters more in V1 than in PI.
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 29, 2011 6:14:45 GMT -7
Myles told me...in layman's terms...that the 5751 is electrically more like a 12ax7 than the other 12a(_)7 tubes.
|
|
|
Post by myles on Sept 1, 2011 20:37:41 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by detuned on Sept 2, 2011 5:13:27 GMT -7
Myles, since you helped me retube my Remedy, it's sounding super-sweet with a 5751 in the PI. Now my Maz sound harshithe midrange by comparison. Do you think a 5751 in my Maz could sweeten that up too, or is that just the way the Maz sounds?
|
|
|
Post by myles on Sept 2, 2011 10:16:13 GMT -7
Myles, since you helped me retube my Remedy, it's sounding super-sweet with a 5751 in the PI. Now my Maz sound harshithe midrange by comparison. Do you think a 5751 in my Maz could sweeten that up too, or is that just the way the Maz sounds? The MAZ is a very different amp than a Remedy. But, depending on what is in V1 and V2 you can smooth it out a bit if it has short plate JJ ECC83S tubes in there now which were once the stock front end tubes. Let me know what is in there and we can toss around a few ideas. I posted this thread on facebook, twitter, google buzz and some other places in case we start tweeking your MAZ. Folks can follow things
|
|
|
Post by detuned on Sept 2, 2011 12:40:07 GMT -7
V1 & 2 are both JJs. Not the originals, mind you (mine's a 2002!), but stock specs, that is, short plates.
This is something I noticed when I was going through my Top Hat phase. The Top Hat Super Deluxe is a very similar-sounding amp, but with a sweeter midrange. I never noticed my Maz as "harsh" before I tried the 'Hat, but after I could really hear the difference.
The way I have my Remedy set up (long plate JJ in V1, stock V2, 5751 in the PI, & stock 6V6s) makes a *beautiful* clean sound with the volumes at 9-10 o'clock.
If I could just get the Maz that sweet & smooth, I'd be done, amplifier-wise.
(For now) :-)
|
|
|
Post by myles on Sept 2, 2011 14:17:39 GMT -7
V1 & 2 are both JJs. Not the originals, mind you (mine's a 2002!), but stock specs, that is, short plates. This is something I noticed when I was going through my Top Hat phase. The Top Hat Super Deluxe is a very similar-sounding amp, but with a sweeter midrange. I never noticed my Maz as "harsh" before I tried the 'Hat, but after I could really hear the difference. The way I have my Remedy set up (long plate JJ in V1, stock V2, 5751 in the PI, & stock 6V6s) makes a *beautiful* clean sound with the volumes at 9-10 o'clock. If I could just get the Maz that sweet & smooth, I'd be done, amplifier-wise. (For now) :-) The first thing you might want to do is pull those ECC83S tubes. Look for a medium plate USA tube such as an RCA, GE, Sylvania as used in Fender black face amps in the sixties or a Mullard (if not too pricy). V1 first. V1 and V2 if you can afford it. Check with folks like Mike at KCA ( www.kcanostubes.com ) or a vendor you trust. www.dougstubes.com is great too as is www.tubedepot.com in Memphis. Those are a few of the folks I use and trust myself. Your phase inverter should be a long plate (my personal taste). This can be a Sovtek 12AX7LPS, JJ 803S etc. Need not be expensive but have the vendor assure it does not rattle at all and assure that the plate current is at least 1.1mA (1.2mA is spec). Most today are 0.8 - 1.0mA and we don't want a weak phase inverter straining when it tries to properly drive the output tubes. In many amps it is not as much the output tubes you hear distorting, it is the phase inverter taking a dive because it is weak. If you want to be sure things will work properly and for many years you can go the NOS route on the PI as well. Myles
|
|
|
Post by detuned on Sept 3, 2011 20:29:43 GMT -7
Great advice, informative as always, thanks Myles!
|
|
|
Post by smolder on Sept 5, 2011 17:17:32 GMT -7
I tried a bunch of combinations, including a 12dw7 in V1. That worked pretty well, but the best combination was a 12ax7 in V1 and a12au7 in th PI. More clarity a that little bit more top end I was needing.
|
|
|
Post by myles on Sept 6, 2011 8:41:24 GMT -7
I tried a bunch of combinations, including a 12dw7 in V1. That worked pretty well, but the best combination was a 12ax7 in V1 and a12au7 in th PI. More clarity a that little bit more top end I was needing. A 12AU7 has a gain of about 16, very low. It is a very widely used tube for phase inverter use in audiophile amps and amps like the Ampeg SVT bass amp. About a half a dozen years ago I used these in the Z-28 amps that Brad Paisley and Gary Hooker were using at the time. Great clean Fender like tones, lots of clean headroom for an amp of that wattage. It would yield more clean headroom in many amps when used in the PI slot.
|
|
bartc
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by bartc on Sept 23, 2011 19:37:46 GMT -7
IMHO the RCA 5751 black plates cannot be beat for tone and "musicality". However, I have many 12AT7 that are good in the V1, but most are not. Newer JJ ECC81 tend to be the best of my stash of 300 tubes for V1 applications.
If you have many tubes for comparison, just use what you like. Tubes are so very subjective. In the bigger soundscape I agree with Myles.
|
|
|
Post by zorange (Zach) on Sept 23, 2011 21:57:04 GMT -7
My JAN 5751 in my Maz18 sounds pretty darn good! Have never really thought about putting it in the PI position. I guess if it aint broke, dont fix it.
|
|
|
Post by Merks on Sept 28, 2011 8:45:22 GMT -7
I have a BK Butler Tube Driver with the bias control. Would a "real" 5751 smooth out the harshness? If so, where can I get a real one and about how much will it cost? Thanks, Merks
|
|
jdot
New Member
Posts: 14
|
Post by jdot on Dec 1, 2013 15:57:24 GMT -7
So if I’m reading Myles article correctly, the 12AT7 with all its current would seem like the best choice for a PI tube. So whey does DR Z chose to use the 12AX7? My MAZ 18 NR is bass heavy and seems to always have a lithe hair, even with the master turned up a bit and volume kept low. I play primarily rhythm, so I want to get a nice balanced clean tone with some decent head room. I also like to crank my PU’s since all I use are SC’s and they seem to open up with the volume.
Will the 12AT7 have any adverse effects on the amp? I’m also curious what you guys have been using for V2 on the MAZs’ which had the cathode follower.
Thanks.
New to the world, so just learning my way around.
|
|
|
Post by Maddog on Dec 2, 2013 6:00:43 GMT -7
I have a BK Butler Tube Driver with the bias control. Would a "real" 5751 smooth out the harshness? If so, where can I get a real one and about how much will it cost? Thanks, Merks Most people prefer a 12AU7 in the TD. KCA Tubes, and The Tube Store have 'em.
|
|
|
Post by myles on Dec 2, 2013 10:03:29 GMT -7
So if I’m reading Myles article correctly, the 12AT7 with all its current would seem like the best choice for a PI tube. So whey does DR Z chose to use the 12AX7? My MAZ 18 NR is bass heavy and seems to always have a lithe hair, even with the master turned up a bit and volume kept low. I play primarily rhythm, so I want to get a nice balanced clean tone with some decent head room. I also like to crank my PU’s since all I use are SC’s and they seem to open up with the volume. Will the 12AT7 have any adverse effects on the amp? I’m also curious what you guys have been using for V2 on the MAZs’ which had the cathode follower. Thanks. New to the world, so just learning my way around. There is no "best" choice. It is personal taste and preference. Try and experiment. Preamp tubes are not that expensive and you should always have spares on hand.
|
|