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Post by doctorice on Jun 20, 2011 6:47:46 GMT -7
Mr. BEvERageS and I have exchanged some messages about the Wreck with other speakers. We thought others might want to join in.
Kicking it off with these observations on Z 2x10 array.
I did some a/b listening with the Wreck driving its companion cab and the 2 Z 10s in my MAZ combo. Not a true a/b with a switch, as I don't have one here. I kept the amp and the guitar settings fixed. Used my EC Strat as I know its "own" tone pretty well.
First, the amp sounds great through either, which is probably no surprise. I focused on differences that I attribute to the speakers / cabs themselves. My impressions:
1. More high frequency content with the 12" Celestions 2. Z 10s seemed a little more forward in the upper mids 3. Better note definition and string-to-string separation with the Celestions; 2x10 sounded a little smeared in comparison. 4. ZW cab seemed to have a bit quicker transient attack
1 and 2 are connected. I'm not sure which one is "flatter" frequency response. Do the Celestion highs make their upper mids seem less pronounced, or are the upper mids of the 10s detracting from their highs? Different sides of the coin, so to speak.
I'm pretty confident on 3. I had the Air Brake on 4 so I don't think I was pushing any of the speakers into adding much distortion to the sound. (Side note: I kept the amp volume around 10:30 and the guitar vol around 7, so I was mostly in clean to slight hair territory.)
Less sure about 4. It could be a sonic artifact of 1, i.e., the enhanced treble response makes it seem quicker on the attack.
One more note: the MAZ speakers are certainly broken in, whereas the ZW cab may not be there yet.
I preferred the ZW cab. That's probably due, in part, to my associating some of the ZW tone with the cab's contribution. (I would not have been as aware of this if I'd not tried this experiment.) As you know, Dr Z always has good reasons for making his choices!
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Post by Joey Beverages on Jun 20, 2011 10:22:57 GMT -7
As I pm'd ya previously Thank you for sharing. Much appreciated. My question(s) now focus on the current cabs I've got - Z 210 (Z10s) and Z 112 (V30), both the older style rectangular box in blonde with brown grill cloth .... wondering about how a Z-Wreck would look like as a mini-stack and how the sound will be shaped and if'n it might have lotsa sweet-bloom and some solid thump on the notes when transitioning from cleans to means ;D Curious in part after runnin' the ES339 straight-in to the Wreck and matching cab while onstage at Zfest - it was so much fun and such an addicting sound .... and curious in part 'cause I know Z has taken great care and attention with the amp and cab match-up - wondering if my amp lust and current cabs will match-up with the 'Wreck .... or if'n I'll be gettin' the 212 cab ..... all that said, I am trying to take my time/massage the bank account and change jar, and make sure g.a.s. doesn't get the better of me - I know it's a lot more amp than I am a player, but it really caught my ear in a big way cheers always, Joel
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Post by drzplayer on Jun 20, 2011 13:19:33 GMT -7
thanks for this man...very interesting!
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Post by markT on Jun 20, 2011 19:19:43 GMT -7
Great experiment Mike! Thanks- I've been wanting to run my Wreck into my Music Man RH-212 cab with EVM 12L's- I'm sure it will sound great, but wanting to hear the differences. You guys beat me to the o'l speaker test.
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Post by decayocaster on Jun 20, 2011 21:28:06 GMT -7
i've used my wreck thru a small 2-12 loaded with a pair of old vox silvers (like 20-watt blues, basically) and oh me oh my, it's might fine. less shimmery on top than a single gold or the z-wreck cab, more like joni mitchell's voice as she got older - richer, fuller. but the speakers are way broken in, while the z cab isn't as much. i should see if i can get that sound down on virtual tape...
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Post by Joey Beverages on Jun 21, 2011 3:51:54 GMT -7
i've used my wreck thru a small 2-12 loaded with a pair of old vox silvers (like 20-watt blues, basically) and oh me oh my, it's might fine. less shimmery on top than a single gold or the z-wreck cab, more like joni mitchell's voice as she got older - richer, fuller. but the speakers are way broken in, while the z cab isn't as much. i should see if i can get that sound down on virtual tape... interesting description, now ya got me thinkin' .... definitely sendin' you some karmacheers always, Joel
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Post by Ben on Jun 21, 2011 4:29:33 GMT -7
Great review Mike!
If you ever get the chance to do it again, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts of the speaker comparison without the Airbrake.
Cheers Ben
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Post by csgband on Jun 21, 2011 4:58:40 GMT -7
I am getting ready to buy a Z wreck. The thing is I have a cab I like, a Germino 2x12 open back with old Celestion bass cone Black backs. I also have an old Blue in a box I could mix with the Black back. So I am wondering is that cab fine and I just but the head or do I get the whole Wreck rig. it is the $1000 question. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks, chris
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Post by Ben on Jun 21, 2011 9:37:32 GMT -7
I am getting ready to buy a Z wreck. The thing is I have a cab I like, a Germino 2x12 open back with old Celestion bass cone Black backs. I also have an old Blue in a box I could mix with the Black back. So I am wondering is that cab fine and I just but the head or do I get the whole Wreck rig. it is the $1000 question. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks, chris If I was in the market for one right now, I would JUMP all over the Zwreck rig (original head & cab - #16) that is currently up for sale in the Buy, Sale & Trade section! For $2900 asking price & get the cab designed for the rig as the Doc saw it fit. Can't go wrong. Ps - I don't personally know the seller - simply tryin' to help a possible future Wreck owner out Cheers Ben
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Post by KeithA on Jun 21, 2011 12:10:58 GMT -7
I am getting ready to buy a Z wreck. The thing is I have a cab I like, a Germino 2x12 open back with old Celestion bass cone Black backs. I also have an old Blue in a box I could mix with the Black back. So I am wondering is that cab fine and I just but the head or do I get the whole Wreck rig. it is the $1000 question. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks, chris If I was in the market for one right now, I would JUMP all over the Zwreck rig (original head & cab - #16) that is currently up for sale in the Buy, Sale & Trade section! For $2900 asking price & get the cab designed for the rig as the Doc saw it fit. Can't go wrong. Ps - I don't personally know the seller - simply tryin' to help a possible future Wreck owner out Cheers Ben That one was 'Sold Pending Payment' by about noon yesterday Keith
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Post by doctorice on Jun 21, 2011 12:47:24 GMT -7
I am getting ready to buy a Z wreck. The thing is I have a cab I like, a Germino 2x12 open back with old Celestion bass cone Black backs. I also have an old Blue in a box I could mix with the Black back. So I am wondering is that cab fine and I just but the head or do I get the whole Wreck rig. it is the $1000 question. Do you have any thoughts? Thanks, chris Chris, not sure how much insight I can provide. Not familiar with those Celestions. You certainly could use the cab with the Wreck. One thing to keep in mind: Dr Z wires the Wreck cab as 16 ohms with the (8 ohm) Cel Gold first in series, then the Blue. I believe the rationale is that the Gold's higher power handling capacity protects the Blue from excessive wattage. So if you decide to stick the Blue in, you might want to wire it up this way.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 21, 2011 12:48:34 GMT -7
Great review Mike! If you ever get the chance to do it again, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts of the speaker comparison without the Airbrake. Cheers Ben What are you trying to do to my hearing, Ben ;D
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Post by Ben on Jun 21, 2011 13:15:44 GMT -7
If I was in the market for one right now, I would JUMP all over the Zwreck rig (original head & cab - #16) that is currently up for sale in the Buy, Sale & Trade section! For $2900 asking price & get the cab designed for the rig as the Doc saw it fit. Can't go wrong. Ps - I don't personally know the seller - simply tryin' to help a possible future Wreck owner out Cheers Ben That one was 'Sold Pending Payment' by about noon yesterday Keith My bad! If I'd be buying it, payment would have taken under a minute, well give or take one or two ;D
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Post by Ben on Jun 21, 2011 13:18:06 GMT -7
Great review Mike! If you ever get the chance to do it again, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts of the speaker comparison without the Airbrake. Cheers Ben What are you trying to do to my hearing, Ben ;D Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat was that Mike??! ;D No harm meant of course, but if the house ain't rockin' (literally speaking)
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Aaron
Junior Member
...it's just easier this way
Posts: 94
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Post by Aaron on Jun 21, 2011 17:09:45 GMT -7
I'm the fortunate one who was able to jump on that deal... Bread and water over the next few months will never have tasted so good! The seller, Tim, has been great and I would definitley buy from him again. I should be rocking shortly after the UPS man shows up on Friday. I can't wait to chime back in with the results! I knew that trip to Zfest would end up costing me money! Aaron That one was 'Sold Pending Payment' by about noon yesterday Keith My bad! If I'd be buying it, payment would have taken under a minute, well give or take one or two ;D
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Post by doctorice on Jun 21, 2011 17:26:46 GMT -7
Congrats, aaron! Look forward to your comments.
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Post by Joey Beverages on Jun 21, 2011 17:58:47 GMT -7
I'm the fortunate one who was able to jump on that deal... Bread and water over the next few months will never have tasted so good! The seller, Tim, has been great and I would definitley buy from him again. I should be rocking shortly after the UPS man shows up on Friday. I can't wait to chime back in with the results! I knew that trip to Zfest would end up costing me money! Aaron .... glad the cost was only a Z-Wreck ... ;D congrats and cheers always, Joel
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Post by decayocaster on Jun 21, 2011 20:29:22 GMT -7
i've used my wreck thru a small 2-12 loaded with a pair of old vox silvers (like 20-watt blues, basically) and oh me oh my, it's might fine. less shimmery on top than a single gold or the z-wreck cab, more like joni mitchell's voice as she got older - richer, fuller. but the speakers are way broken in, while the z cab isn't as much. i should see if i can get that sound down on virtual tape... tinyurl.com/5raf52yall the guitars you hear here are played thru the wreck with the vox silvers - i'd forgotten that's how this song was recorded. i like 'em! :-)> (solo after second verse for those wishing to cut to the chase)
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Post by Ben on Jun 22, 2011 4:13:34 GMT -7
Congrats on picking up the Wreck Aaron! You got a real nice deal that's for sure Cheers Ben
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Post by stratovarius on Jun 22, 2011 6:34:31 GMT -7
One thing to keep in mind: Dr Z wires the Wreck cab as 16 ohms with the (8 ohm) Cel Gold first in series, then the Blue. I believe the rationale is that the Gold's higher power handling capacity protects the Blue from excessive wattage. So if you decide to stick the Blue in, you might want to wire it up this way. I am no electronics whiz, but I don't think it works that way, unfortunately. If the two speakers are of the same impedance, then wiring sequence shouldn't make any difference.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 22, 2011 10:12:51 GMT -7
One thing to keep in mind: Dr Z wires the Wreck cab as 16 ohms with the (8 ohm) Cel Gold first in series, then the Blue. I believe the rationale is that the Gold's higher power handling capacity protects the Blue from excessive wattage. So if you decide to stick the Blue in, you might want to wire it up this way. I am no electronics whiz, but I don't think it works that way, unfortunately. If the two speakers are of the same impedance, then wiring sequence shouldn't make any difference. I can't argue with your statement -- it's logical and correct as far as I know. But I recall seeing somewhere, presumably here on Z Talk, that the order was purposeful. I suppose we could mosey over to Ask the Experts....
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Post by Jan on Jun 23, 2011 17:31:11 GMT -7
I am no electronics expert either, though I did teach a graduate physics electronics lab at university in a previous incarnation. Warning, grand simplifications follow.
In a series circuit, everything sees the same signal. Order of the two resistive components should not matter. Obviously a Blue and a Gold are not exactly the same and do not present the same load/response - but they are close enough for our calculation needs.
I am surprised that Mike is shipping speakers wired in series. If one voice coil melts down, the OT is going to take a massive hit. I know he overbuilds, but still why go there? Yes, series and parallel circuits sound/respond a little differently. But seriously, who can tell the difference at gig volumes?
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Post by Ben on Jun 24, 2011 6:00:21 GMT -7
I am no electronics expert either, though I did teach a graduate physics electronics lab at university in a previous incarnation. Warning, grand simplifications follow. In a series circuit, everything sees the same signal. Order of the two resistive components should not matter. Obviously a Blue and a Gold are not exactly the same and do not present the same load/response - but they are close enough for our calculation needs. I am surprised that Mike is shipping speakers wired in series. If one voice coil melts down, the OT is going to take a massive hit. I know he overbuilds, but still why go there? Yes, series and parallel circuits sound/respond a little differently. But seriously, who can tell the difference at gig volumes? I'd more than happy and certainly not ashamed of to put my name on top of the list Jan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2011 7:25:53 GMT -7
The Doc explained his reason for the wiring at Z-fest 2010.
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Post by stratovarius on Jun 24, 2011 8:11:00 GMT -7
The Doc explained his reason for the wiring at Z-fest 2010. Care to share?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2011 8:22:51 GMT -7
Wish i could. I'm on my phone & don't have the specifics.
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Post by Jan on Jun 24, 2011 8:34:58 GMT -7
Here is what Ted Webber had to say on the subject. www.webervst.com/sptalk.htmlFrom: Gerald C. Lopez
I have two 8 Ohm speakers that I can wire either parallel or series to my tube amp for an impedance of either 4 or 16 Ohm. My amp has both 4 and 16 Ohm output taps. Are there any sonic differences or benefits of series over parallel wiring or vice versa?
Gerald, connecting two speakers in parallel is an old trick to smooth out speaker response and enhance the damping of either speaker. HIFI designers took it one step further by connecting two speakers of different sizes in parallel. A speaker has a large impedance increase at its fundamental resonance, and depending on the installation, this can cause the speaker to sound boomy or out of control. By connecting two speakers in parallel, particularly two speakers of different sizes with different resonant frequencies, each speaker will tend to quench or dampen the boominess of the other. Since no two speakers are exactly alike, even two of the same size, that damping will occur, however slight, for any speakers connected in parallel. For speakers connected in series, there appears to be less control, and more of what is called 'back EMF' from the speakers fed back into the output circuit. While that seems rather chaotic, many players prefer the series connection, as it gives them a more textured tone, enhanced breakup, and overall a more desireable tone for guitar work. It's totally subjective, of course, and many factors affect the end result, such as voice coil size, gap energy, closed back/open back, output circuit damping, etc. The best thing to do, in my opinion, is try both arrangements since you have the luxury of impedance tap selection, and go with the configuration you like the best.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2011 8:37:35 GMT -7
If I ever get a Wreck head (can't see it happening anytime soon, but I guess you never know), I'd do a mini stack with my 1x12s (Blue and Gold). I figure it'd be pretty close to hearing it the way God and Dr Z intended.
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Post by TBox on Jun 24, 2011 17:53:01 GMT -7
Hope it's ok for me to join in here with this discussion. I own a Maz 18 210 & a Zwreck. Its an older Maz and I'm going to send it in for the tone mod and have it brought up to modern specs as soon as I get some extra cash. I'm thinking about using just one of the 10" speakers in the Maz as an extension. The 10 is a 70 watt 16 ohm speaker, so adding it to the Wreck will give me two 16 ohm loads that i can run at 8 ohms if I hook them parallel out of my Brake lite. Any opinions on this? Does this see ok to do.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Jun 24, 2011 19:44:16 GMT -7
That will work but why not go all out and run both the tens at 8 Ohms in Parallel with the 16 in the Wreck cab? That will give you 5.33 ohms and plug into the 4 ohm output. It will be fine also.
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