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Post by teleluvver on Sept 13, 2010 7:48:09 GMT -7
Guys, I have been a Tele player for most of my life. I play a lot of gigs in wineries, which are kind of like restaurants where people dance. I get a lot of gigs because my band knows how to control volume. I mic my amps, and bleed a little signal through a floor monitor. I play a '65 Princeton non reverb that I can turn up to make the tubes work, but it still keeps the stage volume respectable. While I love this amp and it works great for me, it does not cure my desire for a great el84 sound. All of the clips that I've heard of the Stangray are impressive, but a few guys have told me that the amp is a volume monster. One 'Ray owner told me that unless the amp is turned up to at least "2", it can sound thin and clanky, but he said that on "2" it could still rattle the walls. Is there any hope, or is there a smaller el84 that I need to be looking at? I tried almost every other Dr. Z model, and they don't do it for me (for that particular tone, anyway). Thanks for the help.
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Sept 13, 2010 9:53:48 GMT -7
It's loud. I use an Air Brake with mine and on a few low volume gigs we've done it's still too loud three clicks into the attenuation. But you might have luck using the low input and a less efficient speaker (neither of which I use).
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Post by mfirst on Sept 13, 2010 13:41:40 GMT -7
My take is this: If you are playing in a low volume situation most of the time, I'd get an amp that is best suited for low volume situations.
The Stangray is a wonderful amp, and it does sound great with a tele. However, it is loud. You could probably tame it for most rooms, but you will be doing that all the time. The low input is nice, I use the low input on mine around the house.
If you really like the ray, get one, you will not be disapointed. from what you said, I think you would be better served from something in the 18 watt section Doc's line. If you do get a stang ray, I would go ahead and get an airbrake if you plan to use it in mostly low volume situations.
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Post by John on Sept 13, 2010 13:43:47 GMT -7
Yeah, I think you should be looking at either the Maz Jr, or the Rx Jr. Both are fantastic amps....it just depends on what you're looking for in tone.
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Post by rcrecelius on Sept 13, 2010 15:00:26 GMT -7
There's some good advice here...especially the one that says go with a Maz Jr or RxES
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Post by taswegian on Sept 13, 2010 17:26:52 GMT -7
My take is a little different. If you're a player who likes to set his amp to overdrive then just about any tube amp is going to be loud. For low volume gigs you have to bite the bullet and use pedals for dirt or attenuate the heck out it. Either way is somewhat of a trade-off for the tone purists. Some would even say a master volume is a trade off. I however don't rate myself a "tone purist" A low wattage amp set to overdrive, let's say a Maz 18, is going to be a lot louder than a Stingray set at lower volume clean. OK, I'll get to the point. I find speaker application WAY more important in keeping down volume for smaller gigs than amp/watt size. For example, with my Remedy, 20 watts or half power into the Z best, is significantly louder than 40 watts or full power into my 1-12 cab. My 1-12 cab is loaded with a custom Celestian speaker which is basically 35 watt greenback, but more importantly is rated at 97db. The difference in volume and headroom with the Route 66 with this cab and the Z-Best is huge as it is with the Stingray. I haven't played the 2-12 blues cab with my Stingray yet but I'll bet it is a heck of a lot louder than my little 1-12. Drew always seems to like to run his Stingray into a less efficient speaker so he can get to the goods easier. Personally, and I could get banned for this, but I'm not really a fan of the smaller powered amps. Yes you can get them into break up at a more friendly volume but they are still relatively loud, nothing that say a higher powered amp with two clicks on a airbreak, or set clean with a good overdrive or boost couldn't compete with volume wise. But for me, the difference is in tone. Smaller wattage amps just lack something ( or all things) compared to larger wattage amps. Ask most Remedy owners how they like to run their amp and I bet almost all say full power. I know Steve (Benttop) likes his with full power and one or two clicks on the airbrake, over half power, and so do I. I guess the great thing here is if you want to run the amp dirty, you have the option of attenuating at half power and cranking the amp, which is the advantage of the smaller powered amp. But there is something with the bigger transformers that you just don't get in smaller amps. In the last 15 years here, our stage sizes and venues have diminished significantly. Everything is a trade off. Pedals, master volumes, lower wattage, less sensative speakers, closedback/openback, attenuators. I had to do a lot of experimenting with getting tone at lower volumes and that is just my take. Now a cafe gig or theatre gig would be a different thing all together and I could see a lower powered amp being ultra useful there. But for regular small club gigs, I'd rather a bigger amp with a less sensative speaker cab, then see what kind of volume I can get away with. I always pack the airbrake but usually get away without using it. The airbrake is an extremely useful tool, but I'd rather set a more powerful amp clean and run a boost or overdrive, than crank the amp and squash the hell out of it. My rule of thumb is if I have to click to number 3 on the airbrake I need to turn down. For my original gigs, I like to run the amp hard compared to how I run it for other gigs. The volume difference between my little 1-12 and the Z-Best is night and day. I simply couldn't run the Z-Best at those volumes at most of the places I play, yet with the 1-12 it's fine, usually unattenuated. With my little cab, the Z best, and an airbrake I find I can get a great tone at any club or pub with the Remedy at full power, Route 66 or Stingray and still have that oomph, and room to move. So the moral of the story is, don't be afraid of the bigger amps for smaller gigs! ;D
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Sept 13, 2010 17:40:02 GMT -7
Jaye's got it wired tight! I used the Stingray in a lot of different venues, usually with one or two clicks on my Airbrake, but also with some pedals. None of the other amps sound like the 'ray...
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Post by muzacman02 "Jamie" on Sept 13, 2010 18:29:51 GMT -7
Ihave heard lots of great OOHS and AAAHS about the MAZ 18 and the RX Jr However the Ray can sound GREAT at any volume! I never get mine off of 3-4 That's like 9-10:00 oclock on the dial ;D it's killer with a Greenback or a GH30 but I let my Ray RIP using it for Rock and Blues and I oush mine, I also use a Gold 1x12 cab or a Gold & GH30 celestion 2x12 for big venues. when you hear the docs ratings on power you may need an extra pair of pants they are very impressively LOUD But Tone Like NO OTHER!!!! Get the RAY!!!! Use a Brake if you think it's too Loud.
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Post by trim450 on Sept 13, 2010 19:57:36 GMT -7
I mostly play a tele and sometimes a strat in a country / classic rock band, I had the maz jr , z-28 and now a ray, to me there's no comparison , I wish I wouldve just bought the ray in the first place and been done with it. You will love it ! Even at low volume it still sounds like a ray and no other . Sometimes I will crank it up then use a rc booster to bring the volume down. But If you want lower watts the z-28 is a surprising amp with the low and high control as gain control also, you can put the right amount of hair on the tone at any volume. It was just so easy to dial in. My 2 cents anyway. Good luck!
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Post by z4me on Sept 13, 2010 21:13:36 GMT -7
The Ray is an amazing amp with such a rich tone, and that is with a tele too. I had the Maz Jr and though it has great tone, it did not have enough low end for me with a tele. The Ray has a lot of headroom over an 18 watt amp such as the Maz Jr and an abundance of low end.
Yes the Ray can be loud, I never thought 30 watts could put out that much sound. I keep the volume around 8 to 9 o'clock, yes I know, still too low to let the Ray really start shining. I have an Air Brake to dial the volume down even more. I play at our church and I have to set the Air Brake on Bedroom since we attempt to keep the stage volume down. Now on the Bedroom setting I am altering the Ray's tone somewhat, however, it still sounds great to me.
I use a Zendrive pedal for overdrive and a Xotic BB Preamp for distortion, so I don't have to push the Ray into breakup. Both pedals sound great through the Ray.
I do not imagine that there are too many that would regret purchasing the Ray. It seems to cover all music styles; well.
On my wish list for the Dr would be a half power switch on the Ray similar to some of his later model amps.
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Sept 14, 2010 5:39:27 GMT -7
On my wish list for the Dr would be a half power switch on the Ray similar to some of his later model amps. GREAT idea . I wonder if that's something that Doc could be convinced to do as a custom mod?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Sept 14, 2010 5:49:56 GMT -7
On my wish list for the Dr would be a half power switch on the Ray similar to some of his later model amps. GREAT idea . I wonder if that's something that Doc could be convinced to do as a custom mod? He has commented several times here that the current design doesn't support doing that.
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Post by teleluvver on Sept 14, 2010 6:38:39 GMT -7
There are a lot of points made in this post that I'd like to address: My take is a little different. If you're a player who likes to set his amp to overdrive then just about any tube amp is going to be loud. For low volume gigs you have to bite the bullet and use pedals for dirt or attenuate the heck out it. Either way is somewhat of a trade-off for the tone purists. Some would even say a master volume is a trade off. I however don't rate myself a "tone purist" A low wattage amp set to overdrive, let's say a Maz 18, is going to be a lot louder than a Stingray set at lower volume clean. OK, I'll get to the point. I find speaker application WAY more important in keeping down volume for smaller gigs than amp/watt size. The Airbrake is an extremely useful tool, but I'd rather set a more powerful amp clean and run a boost or overdrive, than crank the amp and squash the hell out of it. My rule of thumb is if I have to click to number 3 on the airbrake I need to turn down. I have found what works best for me in my gig situation is to have the best clean amp sound possible, then add pedals for dirt. I am a tone purist in this sense: I believe that a great clean sound can create a platform for a dirt pedal, once you find the pedal that works for you. I cannot turn up an amp, so I use pedals with the best clean tone I can find. My concern with the 'Ray is this. I've had larger wattage amps, and between "1" and "2" on the volume knob is usually a "just waking up", thin sound that's not really usable. So the minimum, decent clean tone (not talking about pushing the amp or trying to get any hair on it) happens at "2 1/2" or "3". At this point, the amp is either too loud, or the decent clean tone isn't decent enough, and I end up back with a small amp that I can push a little yet stay clean. I agree with the speaker apllication comment. At one time, I gigged with a '59 tweed Deluxe with the original Jensen in it. I replaced the Jensen with a Celestion Blue, and could no longer gig with the amp due to the jump in volume. With the Jensen, I could get away with the volume on "3", and with the Celestion the volume couldn't even be turned to "2". We're talking about a 15 watt amp here. So, I need to get educated about speakers. It sounds like I might need something that is less efficient? Smaller db rating? I would rather not have to use an attenuator, although I will not rule it out.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Sept 14, 2010 6:55:10 GMT -7
I would rather not have to use an attenuator, although I will not rule it out. Think about what you are trying to achieve, and go at it from all angles. The Stang Ray is a 30 watt amp. But that is meaningless relative to the sound pressure level you may experience. With a pair of the Blues, it is indeed very loud. Lots-o-db's. But with a single Greenback, you are going to notice a significant drop in volume - maybe as much as 4 to 5 db from the 2x12/Blues setup. So you're now down in the range of maybe a 12-15 watt amp. Still too loud? Stick an attenuator on there (Brake Lite works fine) and move the switch to the first position. Now you just took out another couple db, making your amp more along the lines of 8-10 watts. If you're STILL too loud, you have another click position on the Brake Lite, but I'm betting you're already there. That's how I used my Stingray in any venue.
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Post by John on Sept 14, 2010 6:55:20 GMT -7
I'd have to say, if you're not going to use an attenuator....you can kiss the Stangray goodbye...if 15 watt amps with a Blue are too loud.
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Post by teleluvver on Sept 14, 2010 8:01:03 GMT -7
I'd have to say, if you're not going to use an attenuator....you can kiss the Stangray goodbye...if 15 watt amps with a Blue are too loud. Could be. But the Blue is only one of the options discussed. I played the same 15 watt amp with a Jensen and it worked. I offered the example of the Blue to illustrate that I agree that there is a correlation between volume and speaker choice. I would like to think that there is a speaker out there that will enable me to get good clean tone at a reasonable volume. I played a '67 Blackface Vibrolux Reverb (35 watts tube, no master, 2-10" Oxford speakers) in these wineries for a year and made it work. But I can't really compare that to a Stangray, so you may, in fact, be right about kissing the 'Ray goodbye. As far as the attenuator, I have never gigged with one, so I have no real experience with them. But I've tried them, and they always give me the impression that they don't lower the volume all that noticeably. Phil
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Sept 14, 2010 8:05:13 GMT -7
GREAT idea . I wonder if that's something that Doc could be convinced to do as a custom mod? He has commented several times here that the current design doesn't support doing that. Well, now we know that I haven't been paying attention in class Crap.
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Post by taswegian on Sept 14, 2010 8:34:48 GMT -7
There are a lot of points made in this post that I'd like to address: My take is a little different. If you're a player who likes to set his amp to overdrive then just about any tube amp is going to be loud. For low volume gigs you have to bite the bullet and use pedals for dirt or attenuate the heck out it. Either way is somewhat of a trade-off for the tone purists. Some would even say a master volume is a trade off. I however don't rate myself a "tone purist" A low wattage amp set to overdrive, let's say a Maz 18, is going to be a lot louder than a Stingray set at lower volume clean. OK, I'll get to the point. I find speaker application WAY more important in keeping down volume for smaller gigs than amp/watt size. The Airbrake is an extremely useful tool, but I'd rather set a more powerful amp clean and run a boost or overdrive, than crank the amp and squash the hell out of it. My rule of thumb is if I have to click to number 3 on the airbrake I need to turn down. I have found what works best for me in my gig situation is to have the best clean amp sound possible, then add pedals for dirt. I am a tone purist in this sense: I believe that a great clean sound can create a platform for a dirt pedal, once you find the pedal that works for you. I cannot turn up an amp, so I use pedals with the best clean tone I can find. My concern with the 'Ray is this. I've had larger wattage amps, and between "1" and "2" on the volume knob is usually a "just waking up", thin sound that's not really usable. So the minimum, decent clean tone (not talking about pushing the amp or trying to get any hair on it) happens at "2 1/2" or "3". At this point, the amp is either too loud, or the decent clean tone isn't decent enough, and I end up back with a small amp that I can push a little yet stay clean. I agree with the speaker apllication comment. At one time, I gigged with a '59 tweed Deluxe with the original Jensen in it. I replaced the Jensen with a Celestion Blue, and could no longer gig with the amp due to the jump in volume. With the Jensen, I could get away with the volume on "3", and with the Celestion the volume couldn't even be turned to "2". We're talking about a 15 watt amp here. So, I need to get educated about speakers. It sounds like I might need something that is less efficient? Smaller db rating? I would rather not have to use an attenuator, although I will not rule it out. Well, reading this, I think the 'Ray would work great for you. The ray sounds great at it's lower volumes although it's reasonably loud out of the gate so to speak. But we're not talking a 100 watt plexi here, it is still a 30 watt amp, which technically isn't a high powered amp, I can fully understand how a 15 watt amp with a blue could be too loud in many situations yet I bet Benttops' suggestion of a single greenback played at lower volumes with the 'Ray would be gig friendlier than the 15 watter with blue. But then, maybe the RXjr (15 watts) with a greenback would be even better, but my point is, I don't think wattage has a huge impact on overall or percieved volume. It's just "bigger" sounding. Man, I had the 5 watt Dr Z mini combo and that thing was loud enough to hear at a gig, but sounded thin onstage (not out front miked, it sounded huge!) It's really hard to say the 'ray would be right for you, but it does sound good at lower volumes, is a really nice clean tone (understatement) and has good headroom and so stays clean at some good volume. With my humbucker guitar and inefficient 1-12 cab, I can get it into overdrive at reasonable levels also, but like to run it lower for that clean tone and maybe add a boost for crunch or play really hard with my right hand. I don't think I'll need an attenuator unless I want this thing to break up. It's a great amp, but so are all the Z line, which is why so many guys have multiple Z's!
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Post by z4me on Sept 14, 2010 9:21:03 GMT -7
As far as the attenuator, I have never gigged with one, so I have no real experience with them. But I've tried them, and they always give me the impression that they don't lower the volume all that noticeably. Phil You will notice the change in volume with a Dr Z Air Brake attenuator. It is a great unit and retains much of the original un-attenuated tone of the amp. As I posted earlier, when I play at our church, I have the Air Brake cranked down to the bedroom level. Sometimes I click through the attenuation levels to experience the different volumes and to hear the original un-attenuated volume. There is a big difference in volume.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2010 12:49:23 GMT -7
I vote for whoever said get your dirt from a pedal and play the amp clean. For small dinner theater gigs I'd have to say the Ray is out. I hated the tone that the airbreak had. Every click down just made it worse. Of course I like things loud and would just not play dinner gigs. I like the idea of smaller powered amp. The Ghia is my favorite vote. But of course the way I play it, it still would be useless at low volume gigs. I prefer it best through the Zbest cab, but it sounds really good with 2X12 Blues as well. So I guess I'd also have to agree that the best way is inefficient speakers.
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Post by mtlrecords on Sept 14, 2010 21:35:19 GMT -7
I don't own a Stangray, but having played it several times, I would venture it is too loud for most clubs. Even with an Airbrake.
I thought I would mention that if you like the sound of the Galaxie, it is surprisingly manageable for most club volume type situations. Albeit, it is quite a different tone than a Stangray. Just throwing a curveball for you.
Another option would be to get a small amp, like a Mini-Z, a Tiny Terror or 65 amps Lil' Elvis. Those can get rockin' at low, low volumes, but lack the clean headroom of the other amps mentioned earlier.
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gu3
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by gu3 on Sept 16, 2010 19:01:16 GMT -7
Another vote here for finding the best sounding clean amp and then using pedals for a little dirt. The Stangray is the best sounding clean amp that you can find (IMO). I get incredible overdrive from a BK Butler tube driver and a Zendrive. Use a little volume control and I think you can find a happy medium and still be able to maintain the incredible tone.
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Sept 17, 2010 5:14:02 GMT -7
Another vote here for finding the best sounding clean amp and then using pedals for a little dirt. The Stangray is the best sounding clean amp that you can find (IMO). I get incredible overdrive from a BK Butler tube driver and a Zendrive. Use a little volume control and I think you can find a happy medium and still be able to maintain the incredible tone. Yep, that's always been my approach too. I *love* the tone and feel of a raging cranked tube amp but I also love gorgeous, high headroom swirly 3-D clean ;D. And I'm convinced you can't have both out of one single channel amp. Some guys claim they get nice cleans by rolling off the volume knob, but every example I've heard/seen of that has either still had too much dirt on it or it's a sort of choked tone. Nope, it's not clean enough for me. Anyway, when I gig I love my 'Ray set so that it's just on the edge of not being absolutely sterile-clean, just to the point where the tubes are starting to add warmth and compression, and then I add various dirt pedals for gain and color. It's a pain in the arse - I'd love to do it all with the volume knob - but it works for me .
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Post by gotmojo on Sept 19, 2010 7:52:41 GMT -7
My opinion varies from others! I love the Ray with the volume dimed and with the Air Brake cranked down to the last or next to last position! Love the extra bit of distortion this gives and the compression it seems to add. This is at least for home and band rehearsal use. Haven't gigged with it yet. As I go up in brake clicks I sadly lose some of this compressed distortion and then I wanna punch a pedal to get a bit o' dirt going. I think this amp braked down like that is perfect for low volume gigs!!!!!!
jj
just one man's opinion
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Post by taswegian on Sept 19, 2010 20:40:58 GMT -7
I played my first gig with the 'Ray last weekend with a not so loud band, and managed to play unattenuated, with the volume on 2-3. I set up with a boost pedal for low/medium gain/crunch and a high gain for leads plus a delay and it sounded fantastic yet very manageable. It was very different than I'm used to but "good" different.
Man, I dig this amp.
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Post by Hohn on Sept 20, 2010 18:14:00 GMT -7
I'll add my vote to the chorus.
The Ray is more versatile than one would expect, being just three knobs and 30W. For a larger gig, a pair of Blues will hang with many 100W amps out there.
The Ray, like other amps, does sound better at higher volumes, but sounds GOOD even at the quietest setting you can manage on the volume knob. It starts out great and just gets better from there.
The Ef86 front end really is key, imo. It has a nice high input impedance that lets pedals sing.
I would say that a Ray with three cabinets could cover everything from the smallest wedding to big arena: a single Greenback, a pair of Blues, and a quad 2 golds over 2 G12H30s.
JMO
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Post by gotmojo on Sept 21, 2010 10:22:17 GMT -7
I'm saying it again, cause I just finished an hour on mine at home volume and it rocks. The Ray with an Air Brake though my Matchless cab - greenback + G12H30 - no pedals with the volume maxed out is the best sound I've heard for any kind of music you wanna play (unless it's heavy metal - then your gonna need a pedal). That G2H30 makes it tight with sparkly highs and great lows and I can't get enough of that sound. I could play any size gig with this rig.
jj
just a little Ray rave
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david
New Member
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Post by david on Sept 27, 2010 19:25:41 GMT -7
Awhile back I was at a gig and I plugged a Gibson L-5 archtop straight into the Stang Ray head (w 2x12 cab) at a low volume and the tone was GLORIOUS. The tunes I played the L-5 were obviously low volume.
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Post by robb on Sept 28, 2010 6:28:12 GMT -7
Yes, I agree that it needs to be at about "2" to get a decent tone, and that is probably too loud for most small gigs. With an airbrake you'll be fine, but even at some blues clubs in town i've been running it on bedroom level.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2010 8:55:48 GMT -7
I go along with the guys who say the Ray with attenuation and pedals. Any of Docs tube amps are loud. They all need to be attenuated. Some have MV's which solve the problem. But you take a Maz or a RxJr and just crank it- the suckers are loud. The Ray on just about any setting sounds great. If your using only one Amp that's a clean amp your going to need effects. Unless of course you use 2 amps like a Ray and a Monza.
I use my Ray in my home on 3-4 with 2 clicks and although loud, not to loud. The Monza is great with the Ray..
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