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Post by hearandplay on Apr 28, 2009 18:25:00 GMT -7
What happens if you do this: 1. if possible, run your Jr. into a speaker(s) that has little or no break-up (an EV or a Weber CA would work nicely) 2. turn the master volume (MV) just loud enough to let the amp sound like an amp 3. without changing the MV, adjust the volume (gain) as high as you can without hearing distortion (this is Sound 1) 4. without otherwise changing the settings from Sound 1, crank the MV wide open (this is Sound 2).
Sound 1 is an attempt to maximize the pre-amp signal while not having pre-amp overdrive. Sound 2 is an attempt to produce maximal saturation of the power section while the pre-amp stays clean. Is Sound 2 appreciably more overdriven than Sound 1?
Many thanks to anyone/everyone who attempts this.
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Post by evandael on Apr 28, 2009 18:29:52 GMT -7
I think with the master volume on this amp, you'll just get more of the same tone. It's nearly like an attenuator. But with the MV cranked, the cleans sound really good. There's an added dimension to the sound.
What works for me (I have the Z 10 inch speakers, 70 watts each) is using the low input, leaving the tone controls around 5 ish (cranking them adds gain, which is good for many situations and sounds great, but I digress) and putting the MV up high and adjusting the volume to get some grit. I then back off on the guitar's volume.. this works so well on this amp.
-eric
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 28, 2009 18:43:10 GMT -7
Thanks, Eric.
If you're correct, that kind of bums me out. I've always wanted to hear "just power stage" distortion. Perhaps an amp with power scaling is the only opportunity to do that.
Just to be sure ... would you actually attempt it when you're somewhere that can tolerate the volume?
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 28, 2009 19:27:43 GMT -7
I didn't specify how the eq and overdose should be set. I suppose that the way to do it is whatever maximizes clean volume (the volume of Sound 1).
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Post by bluzman on Apr 28, 2009 20:04:47 GMT -7
I dunno what you're getting at. It's extremely versatile. I can get many clean pre-amp sounds and great power tube drive easily.
I've done it with and without an attenuator.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 28, 2009 20:18:10 GMT -7
What I'm getting at is what power stage overdrive sounds like in the absence of pre-amp distortion. That's not to say that a mixture of the two doesn't sound better or best; it's just that I'd like to know what power stage overdrive sounds like in isolation.
It's not a value judgment or any kind of slight to the Jr., just curiosity.
Let me add ... if Sound 2 isn't overdriven it does NOT mean that the Jr. can't be set-up to produce power section distortion. Rather, it may be that overdriving the pre-amp to some extent is needed to produce a signal hot enough to overdrive the power section.
Would you try it with your amp, bluzman?
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Post by kruzty on Apr 29, 2009 6:44:53 GMT -7
You can try it any way you want. Having the MV all the way up is essentially making it a non-mv amp. You then change the level with the Volume. At that point, you don't necessarily have to overdrive the preamp to get power tube distortion - in fact, you'll probably get it pretty early in that amp. I've tried it.
If you are asking if that will hurt the amp - no, it won't hurt it. Go ahead and crank every knob on there with the OD on; you won't hurt that amp.
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Post by asattwanger on Apr 29, 2009 9:09:17 GMT -7
Heck with the no break up speaker!!!!
When I can I like to set it up wide open on the MV and just keep turning it untill you get some slight break up when you slam that Jimi chord. That sound plus a Blue breaking up is all over the place. It the combo of the power section starting to push, the speaker breaking up and the sound of my guitar.
DAvE
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Post by bluzman on Apr 29, 2009 9:38:47 GMT -7
You can easily OverDrive the power section alone. The Over-Dose is a very cool feature. ...but with the ef86 in the front a little bit of of that pre-amp gain is a sweet thing.
I have an EVM12L that I use to "learn" my amps and you get a great power tube saturation with this EL84 amp and all of the paired EL84 Z-Amps for that matter. While it's a unique and great Master Volume, I like to keep the Master almost all the way up and attenuate with a Z-Brake or Brake Lite. This amp does it all.
You need to play one. It's very guitar and speaker friendly. I have tried it with all my player guitars with great tone results.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 10:41:58 GMT -7
You can try it any way you want. Having the MV all the way up is essentially making it a non-mv amp. You then change the level with the Volume. At that point, you don't necessarily have to overdrive the preamp to get power tube distortion - in fact, you'll probably get it pretty early in that amp. I've tried it. If you are asking if that will hurt the amp - no, it won't hurt it. Go ahead and crank every knob on there with the OD on; you won't hurt that amp. Thanks, Kruzsty. Regretably, I do not have Jr. to crank up. When you crank the MV and adjust the volume for distortion it's possible that you overdrive the pre-amp before the power amp. That's great and may result in the best sounds from the amp, but it may not answer my question of what power section overdrive sounds like in the absence of pre-amp overdrive.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 10:49:54 GMT -7
Heck with the no break up speaker!!!! When I can I like to set it up wide open on the MV and just keep turning it untill you get some slight break up when you slam that Jimi chord. That sound plus a Blue breaking up is all over the place. It the combo of the power section starting to push, the speaker breaking up and the sound of my guitar. DAvE Thanks, Dave. How do you know it's the power section breaking up? The only way I know to test that empirically would be to use a clean speaker and lower the MV. If things clean up completely when you do that, you know. I suggested a clean speaker because I don't trust my ears to tell me what is power section and what is speaker. BTW, I'm not suggesting that a lack of pre-amp and/or speaker breakup makes for the best sound.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 11:07:34 GMT -7
You can easily OverDrive the power section alone. The Over-Dose is a very cool feature. ...but with the ef86 in the front a little bit of of that pre-amp gain is a sweet thing. I have an EVM12L that I use to "learn" my amps and you get a great power tube saturation with this EL84 amp and all of the paired EL84 Z-Amps for that matter. While it's a unique and great Master Volume, I like to keep the Master almost all the way up and attenuate with a Z-Brake or Brake Lite. This amp does it all. You need to play one. It's very guitar and speaker friendly. I have tried it with all my player guitars with great tone results. Yes, I do indeed need to play one. I've come close to pulling the trigger without ever hearing one. I've played a Maz18 and really like it. I think I might enjoy the RxJr even more. You wrote, "You can easily OverDrive the power section alone." Is there a way you can be sure you're doing that apart from the way I wrote? I don't trust my ears. Understand, my goal in all of this is not to get the best sound out of the amp, or even to get an acceptable sound out of the amp. The goal is just to hear what an overdriven power section sounds like in isolation. I've played cranked up NMV amps with and without my Hot Plate (I've owned a Germino Masonette and a Fuchs Train 45), and I know what they sound like. What I don't know is whether I've ever heard a power section overdrive without an overdriven pre-amp. A PPIMV potentially allows one to experience that.
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Post by kruzty on Apr 29, 2009 11:35:37 GMT -7
You can try it any way you want. Having the MV all the way up is essentially making it a non-mv amp. You then change the level with the Volume. At that point, you don't necessarily have to overdrive the preamp to get power tube distortion - in fact, you'll probably get it pretty early in that amp. I've tried it. If you are asking if that will hurt the amp - no, it won't hurt it. Go ahead and crank every knob on there with the OD on; you won't hurt that amp. Thanks, Kruzsty. Regretably, I do not have Jr. to crank up. When you crank the MV and adjust the volume for distortion it's possible that you overdrive the pre-amp before the power amp. That's great and may result in the best sounds from the amp, but it may not answer my question of what power section overdrive sounds like in the absence of pre-amp overdrive. OK, I went back to your first post and can see that what you want someone to try. Although, I'm not exactly sure what this will tell you. Let's say Sound 2 has more overdrive than sound 1 - it is possible that you would prefer the sound of turning the MV down and the Volume up. Personally, I have the Volume on 6 (about 1:00) and set the MV to what the stage will allow, which is usually only about 10:00. If you dig in with single coils, it will start to break up. Now, I'm not sure what exactly is breaking up at that point, but I know that it sounds great!
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Post by mcook217 on Apr 29, 2009 13:15:22 GMT -7
agreed
hearandplay, I say just buy one, and once you start playing it you won't care what's breaking up because it'll sound so good you'll forget what you were trying to find out in the first place.
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Post by evandael on Apr 29, 2009 13:40:34 GMT -7
Hmm. What I meant to say by 'same tone' was, with all other knobs in the same position, raising the master gives you the same sound, just louder. But certainly, the interplay between tone controls, volume, and master can give so many tones.
There is no 'pre amp' or gain control, just volume, and basically what amounts to an attenuator. The power tubes work, and they work hard, even at reasonable house volumes.
It's a great amp, try one.
-eric
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Post by asattwanger on Apr 29, 2009 18:20:06 GMT -7
Heck with the no break up speaker!!!! When I can I like to set it up wide open on the MV and just keep turning it untill you get some slight break up when you slam that Jimi chord. That sound plus a Blue breaking up is all over the place. It the combo of the power section starting to push, the speaker breaking up and the sound of my guitar. DAvE Thanks, Dave. How do you know it's the power section breaking up? The only way I know to test that empirically would be to use a clean speaker and lower the MV. If things clean up completely when you do that, you know. I suggested a clean speaker because I don't trust my ears to tell me what is power section and what is speaker. BTW, I'm not suggesting that a lack of pre-amp and/or speaker breakup makes for the best sound. I was trying to say that when everything is working together it's very nice. I don't know why you want to hear the power section only or more in question what your gonna do with it once you hear it. I don't know which one it is that I'm hearing. It could be the crang of the strings, the preamp just staring to go, the preamp just pushing the output tubes a bit more. All I know is it's a great sound. From clean country playing, to slightly breaking up country/blues, and crangy punk rock sound without touching anything. Overdose your self right into lead land break up land. damn I'm I starting to talk about this amp out loud. DAVE
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 19:21:52 GMT -7
OK, I went back to your first post and can see that what you want someone to try. Although, I'm not exactly sure what this will tell you. Let's say Sound 2 has more overdrive than sound 1 - it is possible that you would prefer the sound of turning the MV down and the Volume up. Personally, I have the Volume on 6 (about 1:00) and set the MV to what the stage will allow, which is usually only about 10:00. If you dig in with single coils, it will start to break up. Now, I'm not sure what exactly is breaking up at that point, but I know that it sounds great! Yes to everything you write. Regarding your 1st paragraph, it's not only possible that having pre-amp overdrive contribute sounds better, I think it's very likely.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 19:28:24 GMT -7
Hmm. What I meant to say by 'same tone' was, with all other knobs in the same position, raising the master gives you the same sound, just louder. But certainly, the interplay between tone controls, volume, and master can give so many tones. There is no 'pre amp' or gain control, just volume, and basically what amounts to an attenuator. The power tubes work, and they work hard, even at reasonable house volumes. It's a great amp, try one. -eric Thanks again, Eric. You bring up a question I don't know the answer to. Does anyone know where in the circuit the volume control operates? Does it alter the signal reaching the 1st pre-amp tube, or is it later in the path?
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 19:30:05 GMT -7
agreed hearandplay, I say just buy one, and once you start playing it you won't care what's breaking up because it'll sound so good you'll forget what you were trying to find out in the first place. I have little doubt about that. All this encouragement is NOT helping me restrain myself.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 19:36:38 GMT -7
I was trying to say that when everything is working together it's very nice. I don't know why you want to hear the power section only or more in question what your gonna do with it once you hear it. I don't know which one it is that I'm hearing. It could be the crang of the strings, the preamp just staring to go, the preamp just pushing the output tubes a bit more. All I know is it's a great sound. From clean country playing, to slightly breaking up country/blues, and crangy punk rock sound without touching anything. Overdose your self right into lead land break up land. damn I'm I starting to talk about this amp out loud. DAVE I want to hear it because it's there! It's my mountain. : ) I strongly suspect that once I heard it would have little to do with how I eventually set-up the amp. In other words, what I'd do with it is probably "nothing." I want one so I, too, can talk about it out loud.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 29, 2009 19:40:44 GMT -7
Someone try it and let me/us know!
There's this mystique about power section overdrive being a good thing and I can see where people might be hesitant to learn that their amp isn't doing that. Let me repeat something I said earlier. If the test I'm suggesting results in Sound 2 being the same as Sound 1, only louder, it does NOT mean that the RxJr doesn't produce power section overdrive. Rather, it means that if/when power section overdrive is present there needs to be some pre-amp overdrive present.
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Post by asattwanger on Apr 30, 2009 9:24:03 GMT -7
O-I think you'll hear it and love it even if your getting some pre-amp gain involved. It's seamless and not like a Boogie where the pre-amp gain comes in strong even in the light settings and the tone is masked. This is not the case with the RxJr. Once on the go it's up to what is happening on the guitar if it's clean or overdriven slightly and it gets projected at about the same level. Of course that is on a clean/cleanish gain setting.
I set it up as loud as I can while staying clean under normal picking single notes, but it breaks up when I slam single notes or some cords. So, which one is it? I have no idea. I can' tell. All I know is it sounds great and as the MV goes up the less gain I need and better the OverDose sounds.
I've really tried to keep to my self about how great this amp is. It's the complete oppisited of the Swarts and both of them have a world class pro-tone.
DAVE
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Post by asattwanger on Apr 30, 2009 13:08:29 GMT -7
Isn't the only way to actually do this is by getting readings from the pre-amp tubes and make sure they are not clipping and then take it to the highest level and see if the output is overdriving? Or maybe if the RxJr had an effects loop and you used a clean SS pre amp or other divice to run into it?
Don't most guitar amps have some pre-amp clipping by the time the power section goes?
I know my MMB before I modded it was all about hearing the power tubes breaking up, because it had very little pre-amp gain thanks to a SUCK cap Fender installed.
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Post by hearandplay on Apr 30, 2009 17:54:28 GMT -7
Isn't the only way to actually do this is by getting readings from the pre-amp tubes and make sure they are not clipping and then take it to the highest level and see if the output is overdriving? Or maybe if the RxJr had an effects loop and you used a clean SS pre amp or other divice to run into it? Don't most guitar amps have some pre-amp clipping by the time the power section goes? I know my MMB before I modded it was all about hearing the power tubes breaking up, because it had very little pre-amp gain thanks to a SUCK cap Fender installed. Yes to your 1st paragraph. However, my method is as close as I think is practical on amps I know about. Are there popular amps with effects returns after the PI? I can't answer your 2nd paragraph from data, but I'd be most surprised if you're not correct.
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