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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 5, 2006 13:59:09 GMT -7
Hi all. I'm not yet a Z owner, but I've been lusting after a Mazarati lately. But I have a question - how much do stomp boxes affect the overall response of the guitar/amp combination? Since this amp doesn't really lend itself to loop based effects, I would necessarily develop a pedal board with stomp boxes for any desired effects. But what if some of them are not true bypass? Will the response of the amp suffer? I ask this because my current amp is VERY unforgiving in this regard (THD Flexi-50) and if I purchase another, I want to know what I'm getting into here... Steve www.bluesallinace.netcdbaby.com/cd/bluesalliance
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Post by Lefty on Jan 5, 2006 14:30:15 GMT -7
How so what FX are you using?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 5, 2006 15:24:09 GMT -7
How so what FX are you using? Well most of what I have now is true bypass because the Flexi won't tolerate anything else. But I would like to be able to use a couple of items that seem to really affect the Flexi - a Lehle 3@1 for example. That thing is supposed to be only relay contacts, but when I put it in the path, the Flexi's tone goes to crap. I also have a Boss Delay that is NOT true bypass, and it destroys the tone of the Flexi. The rest of my gear should work ok on the Mazerati though, since it is true bypass.
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Post by Tom the Guitar Guy on Jan 5, 2006 18:07:42 GMT -7
The Mazerati is VERY pedal friendly. I don't think you'll have to worry much at all.
tomtheguitarguy
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Post by foxx on Jan 5, 2006 19:11:51 GMT -7
I agree with tomtheguitarguy. I also have been learning, the hard way, that any pedal that is not true bypass is really worthless to someone with a Mazerati, or any great guitar amp combo. I say worthless because I just can't stand the loss in tone. I now only have 5 pedals, 4 are from Analogman and 1 is a Budda Phatman. Some add noise, especially the volume boosting effects, but all retain my tone. Maybe there is some loss of tone quality, the signal does have to go further. I just can't hear a difference. I could always hear a difference with the non true-bypass effects when on or off.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 5, 2006 23:05:29 GMT -7
I agree with tomtheguitarguy. I also have been learning, the hard way, that any pedal that is not true bypass is really worthless to someone with a Mazerati, or any great guitar amp combo. I say worthless because I just can't stand the loss in tone. I now only have 5 pedals, 4 are from Analogman and 1 is a Budda Phatman. Some add noise, especially the volume boosting effects, but all retain my tone. Maybe there is some loss of tone quality, the signal does have to go further. I just can't hear a difference. I could always hear a difference with the non true-bypass effects when on or off. Well I've got used to not many effects at this point, so it sounds like that may still be the order of the day with the Mazarati. That's not really a deal breaker for me, just curious about how it reacts to non-true-bypass pedals.
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Post by jwr on Jan 6, 2006 13:20:12 GMT -7
It's really got nothing to do with the amp. If a pedal sucks the tone out of your signal there's nothing any amplifier can do about it. Some amps, like Dr.Z's, work really well with pedals. That has more to do with the interaction of the pedal and the amp, if they work well together, rather than signal loss or quality. They are 2 different things.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 7, 2006 8:00:04 GMT -7
It's really got nothing to do with the amp. If a pedal sucks the tone out of your signal there's nothing any amplifier can do about it. Some amps, like Dr.Z's, work really well with pedals. That has more to do with the interaction of the pedal and the amp, if they work well together, rather than signal loss or quality. They are 2 different things. Actually it has a great deal to do with how the input of the amp is designed as to how much it is affected by the output impedance of a non-true-bypass stomp box. When you have owned as many amps as I have, you start noticing this. My Flexi-50 is highly affected by what I connect to its input - it likes to "see" the guitar's pickup. All I was curious about is how much that may or may not be true for the Mazarati.
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Post by Tom the Guitar Guy on Jan 7, 2006 12:51:43 GMT -7
The Mazerati is VERY pedal friendly.
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nickg
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by nickg on Jan 7, 2006 12:59:48 GMT -7
The thing about non true-bypass pedals is you can use a looper pedal to make it as if there was no pedal. Slight increase in the length of wires so a loss in sound- but not as bad as a non true-bypass pedal bypassed.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 7, 2006 14:09:20 GMT -7
The thing about non true-bypass pedals is you can use a looper pedal to make it as if there was no pedal. Slight increase in the length of wires so a loss in sound- but not as bad as a non true-bypass pedal bypassed. Thanks. I've done that here, and it does help when the effect is not being used. But if you go from a great tone with no effect, to a terrible tone with effect, it is not helpful. It sounds like most folks here feel the Mazerati will probably sound great with my pedals, unless it doesn't. The final test will be when I plug them in...
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Post by jwr on Jan 7, 2006 14:27:49 GMT -7
I agree some amps sound better than others with pedals. But if your tone is ruined by the time it gets to the amp I don't care if you have a Dumble, it's not gonna sound as good as it could. Ya gotta use true-bypass pedals or you will have to live with the loss of signal and tone.
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nickg
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by nickg on Jan 8, 2006 10:13:10 GMT -7
I agree some amps sound better than others with pedals. But if your tone is ruined by the time it gets to the amp I don't care if you have a Dumble, it's not gonna sound as good as it could. Ya gotta use true-bypass pedals or you will have to live with the loss of signal and tone. Very true. Your tone is only as good as the weakest link. Good reason to invest in quality leads.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 8, 2006 20:18:39 GMT -7
Very true. Your tone is only as good as the weakest link. Good reason to invest in quality leads. Well I have very fine leads thanks. Anyone here using a delay in front of the Mazerati that they are happy with? How about a reverb? I have everything else covered with true bypass units....
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Post by kidmagic on Jan 9, 2006 18:11:48 GMT -7
Mazerati owner here.. I have a head that I run through a 2x12 detuned cabinet. I use a fuzz (MOAF by baja tech, it's true bypass), an analogman Boss DD-3 (with the old square chip, not true Bypass), and a basic Digitech reverb (can't recall the model but is still currently available).
Truth be told the reverb doesn't do much for me (and we use it on two songs - super thick going for a particular effect, but it's not a staple sound for me at all), and well I just never found a reverb sound that can compare with the reverb an old Fender Twin that I had. I think it is simply a limitation of either the pedal or my patience to find the right sound. I can dial it in when clean, but if I punch the fuzz it sounds terrible. Or I can dial it in with the Fuzz on, but once I go clean it sounds terrible. So - haven't found my happy place.
The Boss delay sounds amazing - and in fact I thought the analogman upgrade was bordering on not worth it. slight improvement on mellowing the decay, but I thought the much larger deal there is finding one of the old ones made in Japan that have the square chip (as opposed to the big rectangle chip). Big improvement in decay and just general warmth over the newer ones. I run my Mazerati pretty clean, volume around 10 - 11 oclock and it is a thing of beauty with our without delay.
I have not found any real loss in tone by stacking these pedals in front. Whatever signal sucking is occuring it has not been substantial enough to reduce the "feel" of the strings to me. I haven't played staight guitar to amp in probably 3 or 4 months, but still I don't remember any noticable difference.
I will say this though. Pretty much every pedal I have put in front of this thing sounds amazing. Especially the MOAF, DD-3, and the analogman fuzz face. Just crazy how well you can control the feedback. Also helps probably that my main guitar has Lindy Fralin P90's - but the stock fender pick-ups in my American Jaguar RI sound great too.
I guess the last point I'll make is that people seriously ask me about my set-up all the time. Almost every show, the other guitar players are checking out my rig and will often flat out ask me what kind of amp it is where did I get it. It's kinda classic, makes me happy I spent all those hours researching on the web and driving alll over the place trying out various amps and set-ups. It's a great amp and I'm happy to have stumbled upon it.
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Post by hdahs143 on Jan 10, 2006 7:12:41 GMT -7
You may want to look at one of the EF-86 based amps that the DR makes. They are supposed to be extremely pedal friendly.
As a side note, I had a THD Flexi-50. Sounded great in the store, and like @#$% at the gig. I fought it for 2 weeks trying to get dececnt sound out of it but couldn't. Maybe my pedal board had something to do with it, but all my pedals are true bypass.
Anyway, I bought a MAZ 38 head, and ZBEST cab and haven't looked back. Mine has a loop but I prefer the sound of everything going in the front of the amp.
Good Luck!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 10, 2006 9:04:53 GMT -7
Mazerati owner here.. I have a head that I run through a 2x12 detuned cabinet. I use a fuzz (MOAF by baja tech, it's true bypass), an analogman Boss DD-3 (with the old square chip, not true Bypass), and a basic Digitech reverb (can't recall the model but is still currently available). Truth be told the reverb doesn't do much for me (and we use it on two songs - super thick going for a particular effect, but it's not a staple sound for me at all), and well I just never found a reverb sound that can compare with the reverb an old Fender Twin that I had. I think it is simply a limitation of either the pedal or my patience to find the right sound. I can dial it in when clean, but if I punch the fuzz it sounds terrible. Or I can dial it in with the Fuzz on, but once I go clean it sounds terrible. So - haven't found my happy place. The Boss delay sounds amazing - and in fact I thought the analogman upgrade was bordering on not worth it. slight improvement on mellowing the decay, but I thought the much larger deal there is finding one of the old ones made in Japan that have the square chip (as opposed to the big rectangle chip). Big improvement in decay and just general warmth over the newer ones. I run my Mazerati pretty clean, volume around 10 - 11 oclock and it is a thing of beauty with our without delay. I have not found any real loss in tone by stacking these pedals in front. Whatever signal sucking is occuring it has not been substantial enough to reduce the "feel" of the strings to me. I haven't played staight guitar to amp in probably 3 or 4 months, but still I don't remember any noticable difference. I will say this though. Pretty much every pedal I have put in front of this thing sounds amazing. Especially the MOAF, DD-3, and the analogman fuzz face. Just crazy how well you can control the feedback. Also helps probably that my main guitar has Lindy Fralin P90's - but the stock fender pick-ups in my American Jaguar RI sound great too. I guess the last point I'll make is that people seriously ask me about my set-up all the time. Almost every show, the other guitar players are checking out my rig and will often flat out ask me what kind of amp it is where did I get it. It's kinda classic, makes me happy I spent all those hours researching on the web and driving alll over the place trying out various amps and set-ups. It's a great amp and I'm happy to have stumbled upon it. Ah, information! Thanks - this is really what I was looking for. I have a Boss DD-20 here (I think that's what it is) and it has plenty of cool delays available, but it makes my Flexi's tone change from wonderful to terrible. I have pretty much decided on a Mazerati so it is good to know that there is a possibility I might be able to use that delay. Thanks again for a great response!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 10, 2006 9:11:33 GMT -7
You may want to look at one of the EF-86 based amps that the DR makes. They are supposed to be extremely pedal friendly. As a side note, I had a THD Flexi-50. Sounded great in the store, and like @#$% at the gig. I fought it for 2 weeks trying to get dececnt sound out of it but couldn't. Maybe my pedal board had something to do with it, but all my pedals are true bypass. Anyway, I bought a MAZ 38 head, and ZBEST cab and haven't looked back. Mine has a loop but I prefer the sound of everything going in the front of the amp. Good Luck! Yeah, the Flexi takes some noodling to find the sweet spot. I have mine dialed in and to date there has not been a better sound on our stage. But it is a frustrating amp - it only sounds great when you have no effects. The loop on it may as well not be there, and the front end just gets terribly affected by stomp boxes if they are not true bypass. It's a one trick pony - a great trick, but after a couple years of the same trick I am ready for some other cool tricks too! You can hear my Flexi tones on our cdbaby page at cdbaby.com/cd/bluesalliance - other than the slide tune (1) you can hear my current solo tone on track 5 at about 1:36. I'm not hoping to duplicate this tone with the Mazerati - I want some other tones from it. But it gives you an idea what kind of tones I've been going for. As you can hear, it's totally dry...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 26, 2006 13:25:41 GMT -7
Update: Been playing the Mazerati for a week now, and I have to say, this thing loves ALL of my pedals, even the non-true-bypass ones. I have a Boss DD-20 here that made my Flexi sound like poo. The Mazerati digests it like it was made for it. This is great - mainly because I have a lot of pedals that I would like to use but haven't been able to. LOVE IT!
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Post by Tom the Guitar Guy on Jan 26, 2006 18:35:21 GMT -7
The Mazerati is VERY pedal friendly. told you so ;D
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 26, 2006 19:02:54 GMT -7
The Mazerati is VERY pedal friendly. told you so ;D So you did! Karma for you then...
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Jan 26, 2006 19:09:01 GMT -7
Update: Been playing the Mazerati for a week now, and I have to say, this thing loves ALL of my pedals, even the non-true-bypass ones. I have a Boss DD-20 here that made my Flexi sound like poo. The Mazerati digests it like it was made for it. This is great - mainly because I have a lot of pedals that I would like to use but haven't been able to. LOVE IT! I use a DD-20 in front of my Mazerati also and it sounds great. In a live setting there is no noticable tone loss, and I have two non-true bybass pedals in my chain.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 13, 2006 8:20:51 GMT -7
Update: Been playing the Mazerati for a week now, and I have to say, this thing loves ALL of my pedals, even the non-true-bypass ones. I have a Boss DD-20 here that made my Flexi sound like poo. The Mazerati digests it like it was made for it. This is great - mainly because I have a lot of pedals that I would like to use but haven't been able to. LOVE IT! I use a DD-20 in front of my Mazerati also and it sounds great. In a live setting there is no noticable tone loss, and I have two non-true bybass pedals in my chain. I wish I knew how you were getting no tone loss from your DD-20 - mine fouls up the tone no matter what amp, no matter what cables, no matter what guitar. I'm about finished with mine here.
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Post by JChance on Feb 13, 2006 8:35:26 GMT -7
Man. I'm beginning to think that there are certain pedals that can vary, even within the "same" model.
A couple of years ago, when they first cae out, I bought one of the grey Digitech "digi-delay" pedals. It sounded really cool in the store, and I thought it did a decent job of emulating tape 7 analog. So since I don't use a ton of delay anyway, I was thinking it would be perfect.
At the same time, I was experimenting with some other pedals in my board, too.
All of the sudden, I noticed my tone started sucking at gigs. So first I thought it was tubes, cables, speakers, whatever...
After lots of fiddling around, it turned out to be that delay pedal. So off it went to eBay, and I swore off Digitech...LOL
But since then, I've seen several guitar buddies around Nashville using that model, and they all seem to love it. When I've asked them about tone loss, they say, "I've never noticed anything. That pedal works fine."
So maybe your DD-20 is a dud. I mean, I don't really see how, since they are mass-pdoruced using the same spec components. But I guess it's possible that some of them could cause signal loss, while others don't.
JC
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 13, 2006 8:49:18 GMT -7
Man. I'm beginning to think that there are certain pedals that can vary, even within the "same" model. A couple of years ago, when they first cae out, I bought one of the grey Digitech "digi-delay" pedals. It sounded really cool in the store, and I thought it did a decent job of emulating tape 7 analog. So since I don't use a ton of delay anyway, I was thinking it would be perfect. At the same time, I was experimenting with some other pedals in my board, too. All of the sudden, I noticed my tone started sucking at gigs. So first I thought it was tubes, cables, speakers, whatever... After lots of fiddling around, it turned out to be that delay pedal. So off it went to eBay, and I swore off Digitech...LOL But since then, I've seen several guitar buddies around Nashville using that model, and they all seem to love it. When I've asked them about tone loss, they say, "I've never noticed anything. That pedal works fine." So maybe your DD-20 is a dud. I mean, I don't really see how, since they are mass-pdoruced using the same spec components. But I guess it's possible that some of them could cause signal loss, while others don't. JC You know, I've noticed the same thing, and was actually the reason I started this thread. Apparently I'm WAY more picky about certain aspects of my tone than many others. I've had my Flexi for a couple years and I've concluded that I can't run ANY non-true-bypass boxes in front of it, but there are dozens of guys on the univalve.net forums who are doing it and liking it fine. I scratch my head and wonder. I think the Mazerati is a lot less affected by pedals than the Flexi is, but still I found the DD-20 to be sucking up the good parts of my tone. I've adopted a saying coined by my buddy at my main music store: "Everything matters." I think when you get to a place where you're trying to achieve world class tones, that statement is quite literally correct.
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Post by tjauernig on May 23, 2006 22:16:02 GMT -7
The bottom line on effects is this. A lot of the "vintage" stuff we all chase after like fuzz, OD's, choruses, etc were NOT true bypass. And, it's part of what makes them sound the way they do. Are there pedals that are not true bypass that degrade the sound? Yes and no. Does the tone work? If the answer is yes, then who cares. As an effects builder, all my effects are true bypass, but mostly because the masses deem it so. Then there is other stuff like the Klon, which is arguably one of the best boosts/OD's ever, and very few people argue this. It's not true bypass. The list goes on. Enough of the "scope ear", just play already. After all, there's no such thing as a bad tone, just a tone used at the wrong time!
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Post by JASON (aka jgleaton) on May 23, 2006 23:12:42 GMT -7
The bottom line on effects is this. A lot of the "vintage" stuff we all chase after like fuzz, OD's, choruses, etc were NOT true bypass. And, it's part of what makes them sound the way they do. Are there pedals that are not true bypass that degrade the sound? Yes and no. Does the tone work? If the answer is yes, then who cares. As an effects builder, all my effects are true bypass, but mostly because the masses deem it so. Then there is other stuff like the Klon, which is arguably one of the best boosts/OD's ever, and very few people argue this. It's not true bypass. The list goes on. Enough of the "scope ear", just play already. After all, there's no such thing as a bad tone, just a tone used at the wrong time! TIM!! welcome to the forum man! have some Karma... and BTW way I AM GETTING a Gristle King from ya... just gotta get up the dough.. tax man hit me this year so... I'd actually like to have 2 of em... one for my main board and one for my smaller one... and will probably get 2 of em eventually... GREAT PEDALS MAN!!! If you guy's haven't tried em... YOU SHOULD I was SEVERLY IMPRESSED! check em out here: mysite.verizon.net/resoqx8o/id1.htmlI was gonna buy just the boost by itself sight unheard based on the comments by BW... but I was ABLE to try a couple his pedals out thanks to a Z BROTHER and WOW! would NOT have been a mistake to just buy one even before I heard it... but I'd like the Gristle King with both pedals ( boost AND OD) built in it...stil would use my Landgraff but I've been searching for something different but equally good and I found it... and the price should even impress some of our Z brotha's that don't wanna spend too much on a pedal... GREAT PEDAL...GREAT DEAL!! Again...welcome to the Forum... it's a great place and you'll be another Z Brother with a great wealth of info around here... Jason really might oughta be in the experts section maybe??
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Post by tjauernig on May 24, 2006 5:20:49 GMT -7
Thanks for the kind words on the pedals. I really appreciate it.
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Post by Curt on May 24, 2006 7:08:01 GMT -7
Wekum Tim. BW sure think highly of you and your stuff, that's good enuf for most of us here.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on May 29, 2006 7:09:04 GMT -7
The bottom line on effects is this. A lot of the "vintage" stuff we all chase after like fuzz, OD's, choruses, etc were NOT true bypass. And, it's part of what makes them sound the way they do. Are there pedals that are not true bypass that degrade the sound? Yes and no. Does the tone work? If the answer is yes, then who cares. As an effects builder, all my effects are true bypass, but mostly because the masses deem it so. Then there is other stuff like the Klon, which is arguably one of the best boosts/OD's ever, and very few people argue this. It's not true bypass. The list goes on. Enough of the "scope ear", just play already. After all, there's no such thing as a bad tone, just a tone used at the wrong time! Wow, a lot has happened since I started this thread back in January. I asked the question because of my experiences with my Flexi-50 - arguably one of the best sounding amps ever, but also an amp that is VERY finicky about what is hooked to the front end. So I was asking from that perspective. I did buy a Mazerati, learned a great deal, sold that and got a 6545 that I'm still tinkering with here, and also a Stingray. I think I can say without equivocation that all three of these take the majority of my pedals MUCH better than my Flexi-50. None of the Z amps mentioned seem to suffer any ill effect from any of my pedals here. That is NOT the case with the Flexi - stick a Boss delay on the front of that amp, and the entire sweetness of its tone suddenly dies. That amp likes it best if the guitar is plugged straight in to the front end, and I play it that way 90% of the time. So it goes in the eternal quest for tone...
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