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Post by taswegian on Feb 14, 2007 4:52:09 GMT -7
My buddy (and Bad Cat owner) and I were having an argument the other day that got somewhat heated. He was basically saying I need to get a point to point amp to which I replied, Z is one of the best P2P wirers around. His reply was that my amp was not true Point to Point as it was wired to a circut board. Not sure what my question is but how can I stick it too him! I've already said I'd take my tone over his BadCat 1-12 anyday and I paid much less for it. This guy is also my soundman and plays bass in a couple other bands i play in and we are actually good mates, but I needa good comeback here so I was hoping for something technical I can throw in his face! ;D EDIT. I should add that I also said I loved the Z range and especially my Z (RT66) because of their uniquness and originality. I said with a rt66 and a Grosh set neck I might be able to attain something of a signiture sound (not that anyones listening! ) as I don't know of many others if any, playing this combination and the 66 is such a unique sounding amp. I can't say I know any other Ef86/Kt66 amps around. Same goes for the Ghia, there just isn't an amp like it, which again peaks my interest. Most of the Z range is the same, in that they are not copies, or replicas, but genuine new masterpieces. Well except maybe the SRZ which just plain says "This is how you WANT your Marshall to sound"!!! ;D I've probably answered my own question and won my own arguement!
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2007 5:41:03 GMT -7
Technically, as I understand it....
No, Dr. Z amps are not true point to point. Neither are Matchless, Victoria, Carr, Top Hat, Mojave, the new Marshall hand wired reissues or your buddy's Bad Cat. People confuse hand wired with true ptp.
True PTP is where there is no assembly/tag board of any kind. The components are simply soldered to each other without the use of any strips or eyelets.
While these true PTP types get a real bug up their butts about this, true PTP has the reputation for the worst consistancy of sound quality. Moving a wire as little as a 1/4 inch can change the sound. One amp can sound drastically different than another. It's also the most expensive to produce, and also the slowest. Using a tag board or eyelet strips allows some form of an assembly line to be used.
If you're making 1000 amps, you can't afford to have 300 of them sound like crap. You won't be in business very long.
I have four things for sticking it to your buddy:
1. Why do you need a true PTP amp? Shut up and play guitar! 2. His Bad Cat isn't true PTP. 3. Try finding a commercially available true PTP. Most are one offs from someone's basement/garage. 4. Even the most desirable vintage Fenders from the 50's are not true PTP. They used tag boards.
Hand wired with good components and designs...yes. True PTP? Who cares.
However, people are using hand wired on a tag board, and calling it point to point. Sort of like having a cathode biased amp and calling it Class A. Lots of people are doing it.
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Post by taswegian on Feb 14, 2007 6:28:45 GMT -7
Ahh! Thanks guitarman3, that's what I was lookin' for!
I guess the reason he has a bee up his bonnet is he just visited the Ulbrick factory and Dave (Ulbrick) is a genuine genius in the guitar/amp tech business and makes some extremely fine, true point to point amps. They are just too high powered for me, and very loud, although they sound incredible. I do however have one of Dave's 1-12 boxes that is very nice also. It's beginning to make sense now...( I should add he does think my amp sounds amazing) He obviously armed himself with a little knowledge from the factory tour and was very impressed.
Dave has just released a KT77 120watt amp and I'm after an 18 watt Ghia! Go figure. Actually, Dave biased my amp for my album and when he first opened it up he simply said, "ah, all the good stuff" "very tidy" He commented on what a fine amp I had myself.
Rehearsal monday with my mate...I'm gonna have to crank all knobs to 3 oclock now just to piss him off! ;D
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2007 7:18:21 GMT -7
It took me many years, but I've seen the light. Who the hell has a gig where they can use a 120 watt amp? And when I say 'use', I mean a tube amp cranked all the way up. I LOVE a hot burning set of power tubes. It's why I like tube amps....and why I don't like Boogie amps.
So if Dave Ulbrick issues a new amp, who's really building it? A skilled, experienced tech like him, or some 19 year old who doesn't know how to read resistor code? Like I said, there's the possibility for poor consistancy.
The cool sound comes from the power section. There ain't a gig I can't do with my Route 66 or Maz Jr.
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Post by Curt on Feb 14, 2007 9:24:46 GMT -7
There ain't a gig I can't do with my Route 66 or Maz Jr. And the gigging masses said "Amen".
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2007 10:20:55 GMT -7
As a side note ....
There are MANY true point to point amps that I have problems with on the road. If the components are left with long leads and just hang around and have no tag board or substrate to be affixed to there can be all kinds of breakage during travel.
Bad Cat as one example .... as in Matchless, have terminal strips in some areas and this is better than just hanging things out in mid air but even between these two amps that people say are similar there are many differences. I have never had an issue with a Matchless ... old or new. I have had issues with Bad Cats. Talk to Erik Halbig about the time his choke fell out of the amp after a tour change of venue to the next city on the list back when he was with Sara Evans.
I break things down into PCB and non-PCB types. The non-PCB type is also what I refer to has hand wired. I see no advantage at all and some disadvantages of a mechanical design that does not use some sort of tag board, turret board, or substrate to keep the components in their proper place and have component lead lengths being consistent.
If you are going for a pure PTP amp or an amp that uses a lot of PTP assembly there are not too many that are consistent, neat, and have everything anchored properly until you are spending close to $3000. If all is done well in these amps they still will have NO sonic advantage in any way over a hand wired amp that uses tag or turret board.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2007 11:19:58 GMT -7
I figured Myles would have something to say for this thread.
I also forgot to add (that Myles did) that true PTP amps have a terrible reputation for reliability and roadworthyness.
I saw Eric perform a few months ago, he's still using Bad Cat amps.
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2007 11:21:34 GMT -7
I figured Myles would have something to say for this thread. I also forgot to add (that Myles did) that true PTP amps have a terrible reputation for reliability and roadworthyness. I saw Eric perform a few months ago, he's still using Bad Cat amps. Actually he is currently using Fender amps ....
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2007 11:26:49 GMT -7
I could see how a falling choke would make him switch.
Do you know what model of Fender he's using?
Did he switch because of the choke thing, or does he have a new gig that requires a different amp?
(by the way "..have something to say" should have read "share his wisdom with us")
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2007 11:43:02 GMT -7
I could see how a falling choke would make him switch. Do you know what model of Fender he's using? Did he switch because of the choke thing, or does he have a new gig that requires a different amp? (by the way "..have something to say" should have read "share his wisdom with us") It was not the choke dropping out of the amp that made him switch, it was a change in his taste on the road. One of the amps is a Fender Low Powered tweed twin. The other may be his BF Bassman head I re-did for him.
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Post by Curt on Feb 14, 2007 12:59:30 GMT -7
BF Bassman head .
I love those amps..
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 13:38:04 GMT -7
Wait a minute - WAIT A MINUTE - WAIT A COTTON PICKIN MINUTE!Who defined that? I've never heard of that, and further, if you check Wikipedia, the pictures shown there are terminal boards just like you find in Z amps. If you ask me, Z amps ARE PTP. Here's that link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-point_constructionNot trying to cause a war here, but lets get our terms defined before we decide who's doing what to whom.
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Post by kruzty on Feb 14, 2007 13:50:04 GMT -7
This may or may not have any bering on this discussion, but wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information. In fact, once everyone here agrees on what PTP is, maybe someone should go change the entry. Then when someone else has a different opinion, they can change it.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2007 13:59:12 GMT -7
Gotta differ with you bentop. Z amps are not true PTP amps. I've known about the difference for years.
I don't agree with the Wikipedia definition. Above in my earlier post...where I said some people are referring to hand wired as "True PTP".....perhaps one of them works for Wikepedia.
Would you agree that cathode biased amps are not real 'Class A'?...well if you go on Ebay (not that ebay is Wikepedia) there are lots of listings for Class A amps that are really cathode biased. But we here know the difference.
And for what it's worth...I've told non-amp people that my Z's are 'PTP', just so they'll understand it's not on a circuit board. It's a lot easier.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 14:07:57 GMT -7
Well doing a search via Google, I find as many hits supporting this definition as refuting it. Looks like the real issue is more one of definition than of substance. I happen to support the definition in Wikipedia, but I see plenty of amp builders don't agree. On the other hand, there are dozens of other sources of facts on the net that simply link the Wikipedia article. Frankly, anyone who advocated connecting components together into a ball of goo without the benefit of at least a terminal board to instill some repeatability in circuit performance just doesn't understand. Without a terminal board, you can't really make two amps alike. More importantly, you can't make one that will last till tomorrow. JMOAYAETI (just my opinion and you are entitled to it) So go back and tell your buddy your Z amp IS PTP and you can prove it. After all, you can find just as many pages on the net that support that opinion as refute it. Thus, the answer is in your attitude, not the terms. FYI, this article is NOT in Wikipedia, nor does it link the Wikipedia article, but says essentially the same thing. YMMV: www.thomasnet.com/about/assemblies-printed-circuit-board-pcb-2180503.htmlEdit: Yeah, Class A has a similar terms definition issue.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 14:20:47 GMT -7
OK, here for all to ridicule and poke fun at, I offer up my own hand-written definition of the term Point to Point Construction: Point to Point Construction A method of electronics construction wherein each component is soldered directly to the leads of other components, or wires that lead to those other components. This could be done by means of terminals or turrets mounted on a substrate, or by attaching the components directly together. The point is the components are connected directly together or their currents are carried by interconnecting wire, not printed circuits. Go.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 14:43:48 GMT -7
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Post by taswegian on Feb 14, 2007 16:46:08 GMT -7
I break things down into PCB and non-PCB types. The non-PCB type is also what I refer to has hand wired. I see no advantage at all and some disadvantages of a mechanical design that does not use some sort of tag board, turret board, or substrate to keep the components in their proper place and have component lead lengths being consistent. If you are going for a pure PTP amp or an amp that uses a lot of PTP assembly there are not too many that are consistent, neat, and have everything anchored properly until you are spending close to $3000. If all is done well in these amps they still will have NO sonic advantage in any way over a hand wired amp that uses tag or turret board. This was my point exactly, and the basis of my arguement. I So if Dave Ulbrick issues a new amp, who's really building it? A skilled, experienced tech like him, or some 19 year old who doesn't know how to read resistor code? Like I said, there's the possibility for poor consistancy. Quality and consistancy is certainly not an issue with Dave, his work is amazing. BF Bassman head .I love those amps.. Curt, check out my song "Undertow" That's a 60's BF Bassman head. www.broadjam.com/player/player.asp?play_file=3906_8885&sessionID=B09E502FE584464DB2E98186D4058BB4&sessionINDEX=21838Bit of a depressing song but the BF sounds nice! ;D I knew this thread might get a few of us stirred up. It certainly did me, for me, there is highly skilled handwired, handbuilt, amps and then there are PCB amps...end of story.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 20:01:30 GMT -7
Well I over-reacted a little when I saw this thread, but taking some time to think about this whole subject, I realized that really, the issue isn't PTP, True PTP, or whatever. The issue is simply this: Does the amp sound great, and is it reliable? If you can answer yes to both of these questions, then what else is there? Although I truly think the Z amps are Point to Point, the real point is they sound fabulous, are reliable as hell, and they don't cost an arm and a leg. I happen to have another amp here that fits that same exact description - my THD Flexi-50. It surprises people when they learn that this amp has Printed Circuit Boards. Lots of wrinkled noses, if you know what I mean. But as I said, the amp sounds better than most out there, is reliable as hell, was a reasonable price - why would I care how the innards are constructed? As a matter of fact, Andy Marshall has written a great article on this exact subject - no matter what your opinion on this subject, you should read this, because there are all manner of ignorant viewpoints out there, as this article demonstrates. What's interesting is this article, written by Andy Marshall of THD, appears on Bogner's web! Check it out: www.bogneramplification.com/Pcboard.htm
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Post by dock66 on Feb 14, 2007 21:28:15 GMT -7
Great article by Andy Marshall of THD....Ah,I remember reading that and my point of view had changed thereafter. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 21:56:33 GMT -7
Great article by Andy Marshall of THD....Ah,I remember reading that and my point of view had changed thereafter. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, he articulates his point pretty well. I think the bottom line is that if you have a great sounding amp, you have a great sounding amp! Be happy!
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Post by hdahs143 on Feb 14, 2007 23:43:43 GMT -7
From what I remember reading, Andy Marshall's PCB's are industrial strength to say the least, requiring a Dremel type tool to cut through the traces. Now that's impressive quality!
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Post by taswegian on Feb 15, 2007 5:39:18 GMT -7
I guess all you can ask from an amp is
1:Tone 2:Reliability 3:A fair price
and to a lesser degree, good looks.
Z scores an A+ on all four.
Argument won!
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 15, 2007 7:40:31 GMT -7
If you want to see an amp without circuit boards or tag boards just look inside about any amp made before 1946 or so. Long leads on caps and resistors going between tubes etc.. Parts just hanging in mid-air hoping to not shake loose and touch each other. It's a jungle in there! I think thick circuit boards and hand soldered components have been great for every aspect of sound and reliability. Dumble has even used wood circuit boards in some of his amps! He has said that the distance components are from each other makes a difference too.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 15, 2007 9:01:53 GMT -7
If you want to see an amp without circuit boards or tag boards just look inside about any amp made before 1946 or so. Long leads on caps and resistors going between tubes etc.. Parts just hanging in mid-air hoping to not shake loose and touch each other. It's a jungle in there! I think thick circuit boards and hand soldered components have been great for every aspect of sound and reliability. Dumble has even used wood circuit boards in some of his amps! He has said that the distance components are from each other makes a difference too. My dad's old 1949 Gibson GA-25 is assembled like that. Awful, AWFUL thing to work on. Sadly, the chassis was submerged in water multiple times as it sat in his basement for years - wish I'd known.
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Post by myles on Feb 15, 2007 9:28:58 GMT -7
Great article by Andy Marshall of THD....Ah,I remember reading that and my point of view had changed thereafter. Thanks for sharing. Actually ... in the THD area on my website is the original article Andy wrote and it has been on my site for many years.
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Post by myles on Feb 15, 2007 9:35:41 GMT -7
In the end this can all be debated with many points of view and definition. Bottom line to me is that the Z amps are hand wired and soldered rather than a machine doing the solder work and etches carrying the signal. That is neither good or bad, there are good and bad examples of each type of construction.
I think one cannot find a better constructed amp than a Dr. Z amp regardless of the money you are willing to spend.
Some may point out neat wiring looms of amps like the original Orange amps as being pretty, or an old Hiwatt, but sometimes making the wire runs look great detracts from the function and noise levels of the amp.
So .... I love how the Z's are built and love how they sound so in the end that is all I really care about.
If somebody wants to argue the point of Bad Cat vs. Z I would be happy to let them bring their amp to my place so they can play both. In the end it is personal taste of the sonic qualities of the amp. If the amp of your dreams is a Fender Twin Reverb you will always prefer it over the Mini Z or Delta 88 now matter how the amp is built and constructed.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 15, 2007 10:01:58 GMT -7
In the end this can all be debated with many points of view and definition. Bottom line to me is that the Z amps are hand wired and soldered rather than a machine doing the solder work and etches carrying the signal. That is neither good or bad, there are good and bad examples of each type of construction. I think one cannot find a better constructed amp than a Dr. Z amp regardless of the money you are willing to spend. Some may point out neat wiring looms of amps like the original Orange amps as being pretty, or an old Hiwatt, but sometimes making the wire runs look great detracts from the function and noise levels of the amp. So .... I love how the Z's are built and love how they sound so in the end that is all I really care about. If somebody wants to argue the point of Bad Cat vs. Z I would be happy to let them bring their amp to my place so they can play both. In the end it is personal taste of the sonic qualities of the amp. If the amp of your dreams is a Fender Twin Reverb you will always prefer it over the Mini Z or Delta 88 now matter how the amp is built and constructed. Well said Myles. I couldn't agree more.
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Post by dock66 on Feb 15, 2007 10:08:42 GMT -7
Great article by Andy Marshall of THD....Ah,I remember reading that and my point of view had changed thereafter. Thanks for sharing. Actually ... in the THD area on my website is the original article Andy wrote and it has been on my site for many years. That's it Myles,that is where I first read it when I was searching for a good amp,before I've discovered Z amps.......well, the rest is history. ;D
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Post by detuned on Feb 15, 2007 11:21:31 GMT -7
PTP = Marketing Hype, just like "Class A"
I'm sure there is one true definition of PTP, but amp makers tend to grasp on to these terms & use them to build up excitement for their product.
Bottom line: How does it sound? How well is it built?
Doc's amps score extremely well on both these parameters...
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