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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 12, 2018 0:59:49 GMT -7
So a little less than a year ago I bought one of these, and I've really really spent some time on this guy trying to get her dialed in. I've been using the low sensitivity side with a TS style pedal and getting good results with that. (I go for a over the top vintage kind of sound ala Mastodon/High on Fire). The high sensitivity "jcm 800" side sounds TERRIBLE.
I have tried EVERYTHING. Nothing but fizz. No attack, no body. Not even particularly gainy...which makes me think something might be wrong. If I wind the gain all the way up, you'd expect it to be a little saturated/compressed even when playing light but it goes from completely clean to like I'm bottoming out a Metal Zone. It sounds nothing like the demos (what few there are).
I emailed them about this a while ago and they told me maybe I just don't like the JCM800, sure maybe I thought. Maybe my tastes have simply changed since I last really spent time with a JCM. Last week I got a Mesa Electra Dyne with a JCM-ish mode on it and wow! Sounds like how I remember. Thick, sustainy, lots of attack.
Now the first EMS I bought (brand new mind you) had to be returned for a critical default, and they sent me a new one. This really shaked my confidence in my first Dr. Z purchase. And the defective one's high gain side also sounded like this! So maybe the retailer I ordered from got a bad batch? So at this point I really hope that's what the deal is. Does anyone have a similar experience? Please help.
I have several cabs I've tested it with: Laney 4x12 with Creambacks (both versions) Orange 2x12 with Swamp Thangs Mesa 4x12 (stock) Emperor 1x12 with Weber Thane
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 12, 2018 1:05:54 GMT -7
Also have tried many different pickup configurations. I have guitars with powerful lace humbuckers, PAF's, and single coils.
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Post by sharkboy on Sept 12, 2018 3:57:58 GMT -7
I would try swapping in different tubes (one by one and listening) before jumping ship. I’ve had a few (non Zs) that weren’t right until I started playing with tubes- including ones that were fizzy.
The last one (I still have it) was really kind of dead-sounding. I put in a known-good preamp tube, and that helped, so I also swapped the PI tube and it made another big improvement. Still, not a Z, but it’s a good amp.
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Sept 12, 2018 10:16:48 GMT -7
Maybe if you made a recording of what it sounds like we might be able to help a little more.
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Post by brightlight on Sept 12, 2018 11:39:17 GMT -7
Yeah a recording would help big time. I can tell you exactly what that mode should sound like.
I will say that I couldn't get the amp to get punchy with high gain until I got an air brake and was able to also crank the master volume to about 2 o'clock. Before the air brake it's as if the amp was "soft" almost with no attack as you described.
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 12, 2018 12:44:29 GMT -7
So last night after posting this, I grabbed some newish preamp tubes and swapped them out one by one and there was marginal to no improvement.
I think my board at work is capable of being a recording interface let me see what's up. Is there anything specific you'd like me to do with the amp in the recording? Any specific settings?
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Post by brightlight on Sept 12, 2018 13:49:21 GMT -7
So last night after posting this, I grabbed some newish preamp tubes and swapped them out one by one and there was marginal to no improvement. I think my board at work is capable of being a recording interface let me see what's up. Is there anything specific you'd like me to do with the amp in the recording? Any specific settings? High touch High sensitivity Solid state rectifier Gain at least to 2 o clock Another side note: the ems was very bassy to me and cutting bass back to under 9 o clock helped a lot. I know this is counterintuitive and doesnt "look right" but it works. I use a les paul by the way. I saw a video with joel hoekstra and his friedman be-100 and I saw his bass almost completely off and that's what got me to try it.
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Sept 12, 2018 14:45:42 GMT -7
So last night after posting this, I grabbed some newish preamp tubes and swapped them out one by one and there was marginal to no improvement. I think my board at work is capable of being a recording interface let me see what's up. Is there anything specific you'd like me to do with the amp in the recording? Any specific settings? Show us the settings you are using. Also, try turning down the bass and the volume up. Do you have an attenuator? different settings on that would help also.
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 12, 2018 14:45:54 GMT -7
Yeah I usually run my bass kinda low, I prefer more of a lean sound. Don't want to be muddying up the bass player's territory.
I'll probably post some clips tomorrow afternoon.
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 12, 2018 14:50:25 GMT -7
imgur.com/a/NZDIYZcHere are generally the settings I use when in low sensitivity, and I push it with my Keeley Aria (Keeley's tube screamer basically). It's essentially clean until I dig in super hard without the pedal. For band stuff I run the master anywhere from like 10-noon on the dial.
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 13, 2018 18:00:19 GMT -7
Alright take a listen to this. drive.google.com/open?id=1I93FURmYwKXcB0dMFs-d8p3LQOggz1QuBasically all settings start out at noon, including the master. Gain is cranked. It's been ran through creambacks and recorded with a Heil PR20. Not too dissimilar to an SM57, but maybe more forgiving in the high mids. The amp has been cooking for a few hours while I've been playing it and finding the sweet spot for the mic. Throughout the recording I start from left going right turning all the controls all the way up and down. I think the mic did ultimately flatter it a little bit, but see what you think. For having the gain cranked it feels really stiff, lacking sustain. Like it's about to take off but not quite there. It feels fizzy and boxy. There's a harshness in the way high mids that I can't seem to assuage even when the treble and presence are turned all the way down. It just doesn't seem to attack and growl the way a JCM would. In my time mixing bands, I've learned that a little natural fizz is good for guitars, but this kind of sounds like something else to me. It's like there's a really solid underlying tone here, and this separate noise is sitting on-top of it like a tube is bad or something. I dunno, take a listen and tell me what you think. Show me your tone secrets.
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Post by pcns on Sept 15, 2018 11:44:40 GMT -7
Okay, I listened to the tracks and I am not hearing any problems. It might just be the way it translated on the recording. When I crank up my EMS all the way I don't like the sound either but that is just my preference. I've never ran a pedal in front of my amp either so I am not sure how much of you issue might be contributed from the pedal you are using as well.
There is no shame in this amp not being your cup of tea. Doc never has been one to persure the super high gain amps like other manufactures do but I do really like my EMS. I'm an 80's metal guy and I can get some awesome sounds out of my amp with a cable, some humbuckers and my 2x12 loaded with Greenbacks.
I don't know, what do others think?
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Post by purpletele on Sept 15, 2018 18:07:50 GMT -7
Alright take a listen to this. drive.google.com/open?id=1I93FURmYwKXcB0dMFs-d8p3LQOggz1QuBasically all settings start out at noon, including the master. Gain is cranked. It's been ran through creambacks and recorded with a Heil PR20. Not too dissimilar to an SM57, but maybe more forgiving in the high mids. The amp has been cooking for a few hours while I've been playing it and finding the sweet spot for the mic. Throughout the recording I start from left going right turning all the controls all the way up and down. I think the mic did ultimately flatter it a little bit, but see what you think. For having the gain cranked it feels really stiff, lacking sustain. Like it's about to take off but not quite there. It feels fizzy and boxy. There's a harshness in the way high mids that I can't seem to assuage even when the treble and presence are turned all the way down. It just doesn't seem to attack and growl the way a JCM would. In my time mixing bands, I've learned that a little natural fizz is good for guitars, but this kind of sounds like something else to me. It's like there's a really solid underlying tone here, and this separate noise is sitting on-top of it like a tube is bad or something. I dunno, take a listen and tell me what you think. Show me your tone secrets. I listened a couple of times and I have been playing with High Wattage amps lately. I understand what you are after with regard to tone and attack, which is an aggressive slightly chaotic feel. If you like the amp and base tone then it might be worth talking to Don about taking that little blanket off the output that you taste and feel. It's a Marshall type circuit, I'm sure with a couple of resistors and cap value changes you could have that aggressive bite you desire. That is if you felt like investing into the customization of the voicing. I have a new EMS as well and I haven't been able to get past the wonderful cleans with a slight bit of gain. What I like about the amp is that it is really Swiss Army Knife of tones. I can go from blossoming cleans to slightly dirty cleans and then to very aggressive high gain. It also has a wonderful MV type system, it might be worth getting a custom fit. Also, I put my chassis into a standard Z head cabinet and the amp is a little easier to transport than the Small Box Head. Doesn't change the tone but it seems to be easy to move around.
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Post by brightlight on Sept 15, 2018 21:27:53 GMT -7
I agree with the others that there is nothing wrong with your EMS. With the settings you have that's pretty much what you're going to get out of the EMS in terms of gain and tightness.
It does help the tightness to boost it with a TS type pedal, but I get it, you want the amp to be able to do that on it's own.
I'll also say that the EMS could be a great platform for someone looking to use a good high gain pedal like the wampler pinnacle.
In all fairness the EMS was never advertised as a hot rodded anything, but I had to find out for myself and now I have moved on to an EVH 5150iii, which is able to give me what suits my current needs.
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Post by wtwasthat on Sept 17, 2018 10:52:46 GMT -7
I'll also say that the EMS could be a great platform for someone looking to use a good high gain pedal like the wampler pinnacle. In all fairness the EMS was never advertised as a hot rodded anything, but I had to find out for myself and now I have moved on to an EVH 5150iii, which is able to give me what suits my current needs. 1. Yeah that's where I've found it works best. Low gain mode, with my Keeley Aria. 2. It absolutely was though. "and boosted the gain a bit further so that more “modern” drive tones are available higher on the gain knob." I dunno maybe it's just not for me. Pretty sad.
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Post by fishyfishfish on Oct 4, 2018 17:15:29 GMT -7
Your clip sounds pretty good to me. I have not played or heard the EMS in person but That sounds pretty close to the 800’s that I remember. Back in the Olden days we would boost them with a Boss SD1.
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Post by eeyore on Feb 19, 2019 11:49:41 GMT -7
In all fairness the EMS was never advertised as a hot rodded anything, but I had to find out for myself and now I have moved on to an EVH 5150iii, which is able to give me what suits my current needs. Uh oh, lol. I'm going to need pedals. I'm replacing a 5150 with the EMS.
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Post by jeffmp on Feb 19, 2019 16:55:59 GMT -7
Who would've thunk that?LOL!
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Post by eeyore on Feb 27, 2019 6:03:25 GMT -7
1. Yeah that's where I've found it works best. Low gain mode, with my Keeley Aria. 2. It absolutely was though. "and boosted the gain a bit further so that more “modern” drive tones are available higher on the gain knob." I dunno maybe it's just not for me. Pretty sad. I think by "modern", the EMS peaks somewhere in the 1980's according to my ears and fuzzy memory of that formative decade. I also hear that hard edge and squared off overtones in the EMS. My other amp is a 5150III 1x12, so I totally understand your struggle. The EMS gets really close to the blue channel but will never get to the red level without a push. That said, and as you point out, the EMS has a great base tone. I have played with only one pedal so far but generally don't like using them if it can be avoided. You've tried far more options than what exist in my own situation. So far the biggest aid in reducing that edge has been rolling the tone back on the guitar a tad, using the tube rectifier, and having the touch switch down. I'm getting the pickups swapped out in my Tele for a hotter and darker set and if that edge is still there I might switch to a warmer string type. Your experience tells me not to bother with changing speakers right away or worry too much about hunting down a perfect guitar. So it will be subtle tweaks until it gets 80% there and then I'll try pedals... lol
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Post by John on Mar 2, 2019 12:52:29 GMT -7
Well I'm late to the party and I don't have much experience with a JCM800....but I listened to the clip. It's a little bass heavy, but that could be mic, mic placement, cabinet type...etc.
but from what I heard...that sounds like a JCM 800.
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