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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 6, 2018 11:20:44 GMT -7
Well, that's justa buncha BS, Milky....So sorry, bro! Yes, it is BS Lee, but the 'environmental lobby' is very powerful these days. The quantity of rosewood used in guitar manufacturing, must be miniscule, compared to, say, furniture. I'm disappointed, but philosophical. Shxx happens. Just glad that Brent checked out the CITES regs out before the guitar shipped. Hey, it's all good.
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Post by ME on Jul 6, 2018 12:10:46 GMT -7
To quote Tommy Chong “Bummer, man!” ME
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Post by Russell B on Jul 6, 2018 12:11:02 GMT -7
BAD NEWS. I've just spoken with Brent at Guitar Riot. Unfortunately, the shipment has had to be cancelled, due to changes in the regulations regarding the export of endangered species of flora and fauna, in this case Rosewood. The regs used to only apply to Brazilian rosewood, but has been changed to cover all rosewood!! You probably remember three or four years ago, Gibson had large stocks of wood confiscated by the US Authorities. This was due to the same regs. I'm so glad that Brent checked with his shipping agent and with John Preist at Peach in the UK, to clarify how the regulations are applied to guitars being exported across international borders. It could have been an absolute disaster. The shipment may have been held up in Customs for weeks, or even months and fines imposed. At worst the guitar could have been confiscated!! So if you are planning on buying internationally, check out these regs. The regs apply to used and vintage guitars too, although I seem to recall that if you have proof that you have owned the instrument before CITES came in, they do not apply(?). I've copied and pasted this from Brent' s email: I’m afraid we’re going to have to cancel the shipment and I’ll refund the payment. It struck me last night there are new regulations in effect for anything with rosewood getting imported/exported. You may have heard of CITES regulations which require a permit from the exporter (me) and then another on your end for rosewood. Guitars are very subject to inspection now. I messaged with John at Peach this morning and had my Concordia rep look into it. Here is what my rep posted back:
THE CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN ENDANGERED SPECIES OF WILD FAUNA AND FLORA (CITES) EC REGULATIONS 338/97 & 865/2006 Apart from Brazilian Rosewood which has been listed on CITES since 1992, all other Rosewoods have been listed on CITES since February 2017. If a guitar contains a Rosewood species then a (re)-export permit is required from the exporting country, once that has been issued, an application can be made for a UK import permit. Kind regards Claire Davies CITES Case Officer UK CITES Management Authority
Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA) Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @aphagovuk | Facebook: aphagov Address: Centre for International Trade – Bristol, Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH
From my end I’ll have to apply for blanket exporting certification for rosewood. This takes a few months and a few hundred dollars. My apologies I didn’t think of this yesterday. I realized it’s been since 2016 that I’ve exported. Better safe than sorry. The last thing we want is for a guitar to get hung up in customs with fines added on to it or worse yet confiscated. What a bummer! I feel for you Milky.
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Post by BritInvasion on Jul 6, 2018 12:25:23 GMT -7
Oh I'm sorry to hear that , how disappointing! I thought I had read in a recent Vintage Guitar magazine that the rules for guitars had been relaxed? So sorry Alan.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Jul 6, 2018 13:25:48 GMT -7
This stuff needs to be considered at the BEGINNING of the supply chain, not the end. Very sorry about this man, bummer big time.
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Post by doctorice on Jul 6, 2018 15:14:28 GMT -7
That is a drag, Alan. Have Buddy buy it and bring it over on his next UK tour. It might just get left behind.
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Post by pcns on Jul 6, 2018 17:23:34 GMT -7
Do these restrictions apply to private sales too? Could one us buy the guitar and sell it to Alan?
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Post by BritInvasion on Jul 6, 2018 19:47:07 GMT -7
Do these restrictions apply to private sales too? Could one us buy the guitar and sell it to Alan? From what I've read Todd , no that can't be done. If it travels over international boundaries it's subject to CITES and customs enforces it. If it's your personal guitar you can travel with it but shipped or guitars being sold are subject to it. You can sell guitars in your own country, they are exempt. But export is a whole 'nuther story.
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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 7, 2018 0:58:49 GMT -7
Do these restrictions apply to private sales too? Could one us buy the guitar and sell it to Alan? From what I've read Todd , no that can't be done. If it travels over international boundaries it's subject to CITES and customs enforces it. If it's your personal guitar you can travel with it but shipped or guitars being sold are subject to it. You can sell guitars in your own country, they are exempt. But export is a whole 'nuther story. Nice thought, Todd, but that's the way I understand it too, Frank. As Lee said, "It's BS"!! OK, so I understand the environmental concerns, but these rules and regulations are too often drafted by 'legal eagles' sitting in an office, and the practicalities of enforcement in the real world are caught up in these blanket regs. For the life of me, I don't see that a piece of rosewood that is already in a used guitar will have any impact on overall use of rosewood. Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. Just something we need to be aware of in the future. I'm over it already.
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Post by greenblues58 on Jul 7, 2018 2:10:28 GMT -7
So are we saying if you had purchased it there and then and then flew back it would have been okay? its all very complicated. l know Larry Corsa has stopped internationally shipping rosewood board guitars but is still offering the Brazilian board on the Manalishi in USA only but stock he has must be a fair age as no complications prior to the new regs when l purchased my Manalishi . Glad l got both my Corsa's when l did.
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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 7, 2018 5:36:01 GMT -7
So are we saying if you had purchased it there and then and then flew back it would have been okay? its all very complicated. Possibly Bob, but I probably would have had to check it in as luggage in the hold. With a connecting flight, I wouldn't have taken the risk. It may have arrived OK if Brent had shipped it via his regular carrier, but I agreed with him that it would have been too much of a risk. These appears to be no flexibility in the CITES regs. If a guitar has a rosewood board, it must comply with the regs for export/import. As I understand it, even if you tried to import a vintage guitar, built long before CITES was thought of, it must still comply. At the end of the day, Brent did exactly the right thing in double checking the regulations, and I am grateful that he did. I much prefer the feel of rosewood boards, so I guess I'll have to keep an eye open for a rosewood board Esquire in the UK, or perhaps consider a maple neck. C'est la vie!
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Post by greenblues58 on Jul 7, 2018 6:29:00 GMT -7
I bought my American Special Tele in Mississipi in 2011 last time l was in the States. it went in the hold on my connecting flight between Alabama and Washington but l made sure it was the last item in on top of the luggage and first item off handed to me direct. On my home flight to Heathrow from Washington it went in the cabin crews locker in the plane itself. Fortunately for me too l went straight through as no customs present at Heathrow as very early morning arrival as flight was delayed taking off.
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Post by mickey on Jul 8, 2018 10:46:02 GMT -7
I just read this thread for the first time, then when I read the specs on that guitar I was wishing I hadn't! Then when I had read the whole thread I began to wish I hadn't for a different reason!! What a disappointment, but glad you're philosophical about it Alan, and another one will come along I'm sure:)
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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 8, 2018 11:01:34 GMT -7
Thanks, Mick. Yes, it was a disappointment, but it's like buses, if you miss the one you wanted, there will always be another. Watch This Space.
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Post by heynewguy (Ol’ Bill) on Jul 8, 2018 18:46:38 GMT -7
Sorry Milky. 😤🤬🤯
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Post by fastfrets (Bob) on Jul 11, 2018 23:18:10 GMT -7
Congratulations Alan! I know you’ll give her a good home. I’m excited to know I was there when you met her! I think you mentioned you fancied an Esquire. Wow! Glad to hear you got her. Have you told Sharon yet? ;-) Take care . . . Bob
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Jul 12, 2018 7:30:03 GMT -7
Alan, I'm so sorry, buddy...that just sucks. I can understand protecting a species, but expanding the regs to cover all species of rosewood is going too far. Rather than ban it, they should figure out a sustainable way to fill the demand. I wish I had a compelling reason to go to GB, I'd buy that Esquire and hand deliver it to you.
There must be a way around this. How can Gibson, Fender, and the rest ship and sell their products? I just looked at the Gibson website and the bulk of the guitars I looked at all have rosewood fingerboards. Is it the mission of CITES to make it too expensive to use whatever they want to 'protect'? I'm sorry, but government red tape infuriates me.
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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 12, 2018 10:55:35 GMT -7
Alan, I'm so sorry, buddy...that just sucks. I can understand protecting a species, but expanding the regs to cover all species of rosewood is going too far. Rather than ban it, they should figure out a sustainable way to fill the demand. I wish I had a compelling reason to go to GB, I'd buy that Esquire and hand deliver it to you. There must be a way around this. How can Gibson, Fender, and the rest ship and sell their products? I just looked at the Gibson website and the bulk of the guitars I looked at all have rosewood fingerboards. Is it the mission of CITES to make it too expensive to use whatever they want to 'protect'? I'm sorry, but government red tape infuriates me. Thanks for your thoughts, Dave, but unfortunately these regs create a real hurdle for private transactions. The major guitar manufacturers have all the necessary certifications in place to allow them to export, but private or small dealer transactions must be accompanied by the necessary documentation for each export sale. See this link: CITES REGS
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Post by helmi on Jul 12, 2018 16:39:16 GMT -7
Sorry to hear Milky!
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Post by fastfrets (Bob) on Jul 12, 2018 22:46:21 GMT -7
Sorry to hear this Alan. I hope you find what you’re looking for soon and can actually get it! This is really crap. Expanding CITES to cover all rosewood is going to raise hell with acoustic guitars! (D28, Collins, Taylor 814ce, etc.) ☹️
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Post by The Bad Poodle Experience on Jul 13, 2018 9:11:49 GMT -7
What a drag. Hey Alan... if you buy it and have it shipped to my house in the states you will have an open invitation to come play it anytime.
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Post by Alan M (aka 'Milky') on Jul 13, 2018 11:15:21 GMT -7
What a drag. Hey Alan... if you buy it and have it shipped to my house in the states you will have an open invitation to come play it anytime. What a generous offer, Ian! I'll have to consider it very carefully........... It's still available at Guitar Riot. Give Brent a call.....Seriously, it's a great guitar!!
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Post by BW on Aug 20, 2018 12:21:35 GMT -7
Alan Mickleburgh, Esq.
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