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Post by John E. on Apr 26, 2017 7:29:32 GMT -7
I play through a 40 watt Dr. Z Remedy into a 2x12 with Creambacks. But to get that good speaker breakup, I have to be much louder than my venue (Church) can handle. What wattage should I get that would be safe with a 40 watt amp?
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Apr 26, 2017 8:40:43 GMT -7
40 watts or above. Unless you are using the thing with both volumes and the master full up and on full power. You could get by with a 35 and I would even go with a 30, but you are on your own if you go lower than 40. If you only use half power, you would be good to go with an 18 or 20 watter.
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Post by Rockerfeller on Apr 26, 2017 9:19:36 GMT -7
I play through a 40 watt Dr. Z Remedy into a 2x12 with Creambacks. But to get that good speaker breakup, I have to be much louder than my venue (Church) can handle. What wattage should I get that would be safe with a 40 watt amp? The Creamback is the perfect speaker for the Remedy and it is already a 97db speaker. I am assuming you don't have the Master Volume? Try a Brakelite, that will help get things down and on two clicks, you would shave 5 db off the volume. Some guys, to tame the Wreck's volume, disconnect one of the speakers. I don't think that actually reduces db levels but it narrows the throw of the cabinet, so you might try that. Another trick that I have tried at churches is to point my cab sideways, throwing across the stage, but pointed at me and away from the people on stage. If the back of the stage has a curtain, I have also had success turning an open back cab around so that the back of the speaker is pointing towards the congregation. BUT, if it is a tiny little room, a Remedy with 2 Creambacks is going to dominate the room as much as a Marshall half stack!
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Post by "Z" Steve on Apr 26, 2017 9:44:19 GMT -7
Do you lose anything sonically by switching to 20 watts?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 11:16:03 GMT -7
On average, I try to double amp wattage with speaker wattage. I smoked a 40w speaker with my Therapy...
It's difficult finding high watt, low efficiency speakers, that's why the Creamback is an excellent choice...
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Post by John on Apr 27, 2017 6:57:12 GMT -7
Speaker breakup is only one element of tone. It is not required, and for some players, they don't want ANY. It's all a matter of taste and personal preference.
But you may have to give up some personal preferences because of the conditions of the gig. And if you're not able to push a speaker into breakup territory because of volume concerns....well, that's the gig.
A creamback is a higher wattage speaker, but it's also very inefficient at only 97db. Meaning, for the same amount of amp power, it puts out less volume. You could get yourself a Celestion Blue, which has very early breakup, but it's a 100db speaker...very loud for the same amount of amp power. You'll get your speaker breakup, but you'll have trouble controlling the additional volume.
I would imagine in your situation, the lower 97db efficiency of the creamback would be MUCH more desirable than a lower wattage speaker with a higher db rating, like a blue. (a 3db difference is a big change and very noticeable.)
And on top of it, a greenback, or anything that sounds like a greenback (like the creamback) is perfect for the Remedy. The two were made for each other.
A Remedy with a 2x12 w creambacks? If it were me, I wouldn't change a thing.
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Post by ME on Apr 27, 2017 10:35:15 GMT -7
I have a MV Remedy and use a Brake Lite and find useable tones at reasonable volume. 20 watt setting I find more compressed, or to my ear thicker sounding. 40 watt has more snap and openness to its tone. Both useful tones to have without adding anything to the amp. I haven't cranked the amp much lately, but I am planning on checking how the 20 watt setting sounds at higher master settings without attenuation tonight! 😎 ME
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Post by nmz on Apr 27, 2017 10:58:54 GMT -7
I would send it in for the MV mod.
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Post by John E. on Apr 27, 2017 11:30:28 GMT -7
I have a MV Remedy and use a Brake Lite and find useable tones at reasonable volume. 20 watt setting I find more compressed, or to my ear thicker sounding. 40 watt has more snap and openness to its tone. Both useful tones to have without adding anything to the amp. I haven't cranked the amp much lately, but I am planning on checking how the 20 watt setting sounds at higher master settings without attenuation tonight! 😎 ME The problem isnt that I need a MV, I have the MV. My issue is that I need speakers that will break up at lower volumes. I like speaker breakup
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Post by nicholas on Apr 27, 2017 17:27:51 GMT -7
Just use two regular 20w greenbacks. I like the EVH greenbacks because they are actually cheaper than the Heritage Green backs and as far as I can tell the same. Just my opinion, but 20 watt Greenback is the speaker for that type amp. Use as many as you need to equal the amp wattage. I've never blown one that way.
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Post by John on Apr 27, 2017 18:00:35 GMT -7
The problem isnt that I need a MV, I have the MV. My issue is that I need speakers that will break up at lower volumes. I like speaker breakup Usually speaker breakup is considered a 'fine tuning' thing. It's one of those things you consider AFTER you've chosen your amp, guitar, speakers and speaker cabinet. You're using a pretty loud amp in a church setting. I don't mean to be insulting...I don't know anything about you, and what you may or may not know...but I have to ask: Do you know the difference between amp overdrive and speaker breakup? Are you wanting more 'overdrive' or 'distortion'...and thinking that is speaker breakup? Most people couldn't detect speaker breakup if their life depended on it. Especially if the amp is distorting a lot. Where do you have your amp volume settings? And are you using the 40 or 20 watt setting? And if you really want quick speaker breakup....get yourself a 2x10 cabinet and load it with 10" greenbacks. They're only 95db and have very small magnets. (small magnets= early breakup) They break up quick and allow you to crank up the Remedy to overdrive levels at lower volumes.
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Post by John E. on Apr 28, 2017 8:35:36 GMT -7
The problem isnt that I need a MV, I have the MV. My issue is that I need speakers that will break up at lower volumes. I like speaker breakup Usually speaker breakup is considered a 'fine tuning' thing. It's one of those things you consider AFTER you've chosen your amp, guitar, speakers and speaker cabinet. You're using a pretty loud amp in a church setting. I don't mean to be insulting...I don't know anything about you, and what you may or may not know...but I have to ask: Do you know the difference between amp overdrive and speaker breakup? Are you wanting more 'overdrive' or 'distortion'...and thinking that is speaker breakup? Most people couldn't detect speaker breakup if their life depended on it. Especially if the amp is distorting a lot. Where do you have your amp volume settings? And are you using the 40 or 20 watt setting? And if you really want quick speaker breakup....get yourself a 2x10 cabinet and load it with 10" greenbacks. They're only 95db and have very small magnets. (small magnets= early breakup) They break up quick and allow you to crank up the Remedy to overdrive levels at lower volumes. I'm not even sure if "speaker breaup" is the term I'm looking for. When I have the amp at manageable levels, the amp itself I know is breaking up, but it sounds 'Fizzy'. Once I turn the MV past noon it smooths out A LOT. As in: No fizz, more sustain etc.. BUT! When I have used an Airbrake in the past, even if I cranked the MV, it still sounded fizzy. Which leads me to believe it has something to do with the speakers being worked harder, and perhaps if I had lower powered speakers, it would take less volume to work those speakers so much.
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Post by John on Apr 28, 2017 9:53:48 GMT -7
Ok...now we're on to something.
When you turn the amp up loud, the fizzyness goes away. I understand exactly what you mean.
There's one big factor in all of this: The human ear hears things differently at different volume levels.
When you crank up the amp, I'm willing to bet the fizzyness is still there, but your ears aren't hearing it. And that's why when you knock it back down with the airbrake...it's back. Even though you've got the MV cranked. I highly speculate it's your ears hearing differently at different volumes. (there's a name for this condition, but I can't remember it)
A few years ago, there was a lot of discussion about this on this forum. Some people were saying the airbrake drastically changes tone. (They spoke of the fizzy issue) So forum member Benttop, made several recordings....all with different levels of attenuation/Airbrake...and one without any airbrake. (Just a recording of guitar, playing the same notes/chords for each recording, no changes to amp settings, speakers, cabinets, mics, mic placement...etc) He then mixed these recording to play back all at the same level. He posted these recordings on the forum to see if people could identify what was 1) no attenuation 2) medium attenuation 3) maximum attenuation.
It was VERY difficult to hear any differences in the recordings. The point being: The max attenuation (which should have lots of fizzies) sounded the same as the loud 'no attenuation' (which should have NO fizzies) So it wasn't the amp, the speakers, or the attenuator. It's a person's ear hearing different things at different volumes.
What to do about it? First off, I'd set your amp settings (and attenuator) so that your tone is something you like at the stage volume you need. Fizzies can be reduced by turning the treble down. Also do NOT have your speaker (cabinet) tilted back so the speakers are pointed toward your head. And do NOT have it up on top of a box or table. Keep it on the floor. Guitar speakers are different than stereo speakers. Guitar speakers have a 'beam' of sound that points (or beams as you would) directly straight out from where the speaker is pointed. If you step into this 'beam' of sound, you'll hear a different tone. The tone of what's in the beam is fizzy and undesirable. (That's why people mic guitars speakers off center on the cone, not directly in the middle of the speaker...they'll pick up the 'beam' if they do) This is why you don't want to tilt your cabinet back. (if you're even doing it)
Also, don't be afraid to turn the tone of the guitar down just a bit. That will help curb fizzies a LOT!
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Apr 28, 2017 10:23:20 GMT -7
One way to check if it's the amp/speaker or your ears is to record the amp/speaker at the different levels and see if the fizziness is there when you listen to the recording at a reasonable level. A few years ago I kept trying to dial out a frequency peak that I didn't like from an amp . Nothing worked. When I recorded the amp the peak wasn't there. Turned out the peak was the way my ears reacted to the sound. Told this to my ear nose and throat doctor and he said, of course. We like to think that our hearing is smooth across the frequency spectrum, and it probably is when we are born. But as you are exposed to different levels of sound and frequencies as you age, your ears react more to some frequencies and less to others. He also told me that when sound reaches a certain level that is different for each person, you get what you might call ear distortion or breakup where the cells, bone, etc. in the ear are producing artifacts like distortion, fizz and such. Which of course gets worse as you get older and are exposed to more loud sounds. Ask a young child about the sound coming out of your amp and they will likely say that there is too much high end, as they can hear those high frequencies that you boosted so you can make up for your loss as you age. Recording what your amp sounds like when it is set at gig levels in an environment similar to where you are playing will give you an idea of what others here in the audience. For me that's more important, or at least as important as what I am hearing in the din of onstage volume.
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Post by John E. on Apr 28, 2017 11:41:03 GMT -7
Ok...now we're on to something. When you turn the amp up loud, the fizzyness goes away. I understand exactly what you mean. There's one big factor in all of this: The human ear hears things differently at different volume levels. When you crank up the amp, I'm willing to bet the fizzyness is still there, but your ears aren't hearing it. And that's why when you knock it back down with the airbrake...it's back. Even though you've got the MV cranked. I highly speculate it's your ears hearing differently at different volumes. (there's a name for this condition, but I can't remember it) A few years ago, there was a lot of discussion about this on this forum. Some people were saying the airbrake drastically changes tone. (They spoke of the fizzy issue) So forum member Benttop, made several recordings....all with different levels of attenuation/Airbrake...and one without any airbrake. (Just a recording of guitar, playing the same notes/chords for each recording, no changes to amp settings, speakers, cabinets, mics, mic placement...etc) He then mixed these recording to play back all at the same level. He posted these recordings on the forum to see if people could identify what was 1) no attenuation 2) medium attenuation 3) maximum attenuation. It was VERY difficult to hear any differences in the recordings. The point being: The max attenuation (which should have lots of fizzies) sounded the same as the loud 'no attenuation' (which should have NO fizzies) So it wasn't the amp, the speakers, or the attenuator. It's a person's ear hearing different things at different volumes. What to do about it? First off, I'd set your amp settings (and attenuator) so that your tone is something you like at the stage volume you need. Fizzies can be reduced by turning the treble down. Also do NOT have your speaker (cabinet) tilted back so the speakers are pointed toward your head. And do NOT have it up on top of a box or table. Keep it on the floor. Guitar speakers are different than stereo speakers. Guitar speakers have a 'beam' of sound that points (or beams as you would) directly straight out from where the speaker is pointed. If you step into this 'beam' of sound, you'll hear a different tone. The tone of what's in the beam is fizzy and undesirable. (That's why people mic guitars speakers off center on the cone, not directly in the middle of the speaker...they'll pick up the 'beam' if they do) This is why you don't want to tilt your cabinet back. (if you're even doing it) Also, don't be afraid to turn the tone of the guitar down just a bit. That will help curb fizzies a LOT! Thank you!! That was the best advice I've gotten thus far!! On stage I do have a plexiglass amp shield in front of my cab 1) to lower the possibility of taking people heads off with the beam 2) so the mic doesnt pick up the rest of the band. And with the shield I dont hear the fuzziness as much. So that makes sense that its my ears, not my speakers.
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Post by John on Apr 29, 2017 4:36:55 GMT -7
I actually love playing with a plexi amp shield. It allows me to crank the amp, play loud...without killing the first few rows with the beam, without having a sound man yell at me, and without a band member or singer tell me I'm too loud. And the shield seems to kill the fizzies. What I end up hearing on stage is partly what has reflected off the shield. If I stand near the shield, I can hear myself very well. If I move away, it's obviously less. But hopefully by then, there would be a monitor involved.
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Post by John E. on Apr 29, 2017 13:34:47 GMT -7
I actually love playing with a plexi amp shield. It allows me to crank the amp, play loud...without killing the first few rows with the beam, without having a sound man yell at me, and without a band member or singer tell me I'm too loud. And the shield seems to kill the fizzies. What I end up hearing on stage is partly what has reflected off the shield. If I stand near the shield, I can hear myself very well. If I move away, it's obviously less. But hopefully by then, there would be a monitor involved. I know its blasphemy in the church band world, but I dont use in-ear monitors. Or any type of chord charts. So the amp shield has been great cause I can hear myself, and the band, without killing everyone.
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Post by Jefferson on May 20, 2017 10:14:23 GMT -7
Just curious if your cab is mic'd or not? It took me a long time to make the switch from monitor to in-ears in church, but ultimately it was worth it. I play now with one ear in and one out. In this way I get the feel of the house/congregation, and I also get to mix my own ears.
So if you are already micing your cab u might find that a combination of in-ears and house mix is actually better than what u have today.
Just a thought...
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Post by John E. on Jun 1, 2017 11:33:40 GMT -7
Just curious if your cab is mic'd or not? It took me a long time to make the switch from monitor to in-ears in church, but ultimately it was worth it. I play now with one ear in and one out. In this way I get the feel of the house/congregation, and I also get to mix my own ears. So if you are already micing your cab u might find that a combination of in-ears and house mix is actually better than what u have today. Just a thought... It is mic'd just to give it more presence in the sanctuary instead of one side getting their heads blown off and the other side not hearing a thing. Now I just get to blow EVERYONES heads off
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