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Post by ss "Shane" on Aug 29, 2016 19:30:06 GMT -7
I'm seriously thinking about a Brake Lite to tame my Ghia for the bedroom. I have a few concerns...
1. Will the Brake Lite harm or affect the life span of my amp?
2. Exactly how does this thing mount to the cab and how does it connect? Is there a jack that plugs into the amp, then a speaker cable connects the BL to the cab?
3. Is it worth the money? I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.
4. I've seen black ones and white ones. What's the differance.
Lastly, if somebody here would be kind enough to post simple step by step instructions on how to mount and hook it all up I'd really be greatful.
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Post by meanslide on Aug 29, 2016 19:49:00 GMT -7
- A BL will not harm your amp in any way. - A couple of small screws mount it inside the amp. Your speaker jack plugs into the BL, cable from BL plugs into speaker out on the amp. - Yes, worth the $. If you need to dial back the volume, it works great. With each click down, you'll notice slight tone loss, but very slight. If you start with the BL clicked down, set your tone, and then click up to get to the volume you want, it's much less noticeable. - No difference between black vs white. Black is the newer style. - Mounting is just two small screws, as I mentioned. Harness from speaker plugs into the BL. 1/4" jack from BL plugs into amp. If you were to mount it in an extension cab, some soldering would be needed, but not much. You would remove the 1/4" jack from the BL and solder the wires to the input jack of the cabinet.
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Post by ss "Shane" on Aug 29, 2016 20:09:20 GMT -7
I would want to mount it to the amp then, but is there a specific spot inside of the amp that most people use? I have the head, not the combo.
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Post by meanslide on Aug 29, 2016 21:49:50 GMT -7
I haven't tried to mount one in a small chassis head cab...it might be kinda tight as you have to get to the side of it to plug in/out and the top of it to adjust it. You could also go with a Brake Lite SA (stand alone). Same device just made sit on your amp vs screwing to the cab. You also have two outputs on the SA version to run an extra cab if you wanted to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 22:21:34 GMT -7
I probably wouldn't mount it in the head cab. Too much heat flying around in there, which will affect the life of your amp...
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Aug 29, 2016 23:59:25 GMT -7
The. Brake. Lite. Does. Not. Cause. "Tone. Loss." Please stop spreading this nonsense. What you're perceiving as "tone loss" is psychoacoustics ("louder = better"), perceived loudness (see Fletcher-Munson curves), lack of room reverberation (walls don't shake at low volumes) and possibly reduced speaker compression. The amp tone is *NOT* affected. At all. With regards to the other questions: 1. Will the Brake Lite harm or affect the life span of my amp? No. You might turn it up more because you love what you're hearing, though, and thus burn through tubes quicker. 2. Exactly how does this thing mount to the cab and how does it connect? Is there a jack that plugs into the amp, then a speaker cable connects the BL to the cab? It basically goes into the chain at the speaker cable. So plug it in where you'd usually plug in your speaker cable and then plug that speaker cable into the Brake Lite instead. 3. Is it worth the money? I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness. It makes Z's worth the money if you're not playing arena stages. 4. I've seen black ones and white ones. What's the differance. The black ones are newer. That's it. Cheers!
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Post by meanslide on Aug 30, 2016 8:21:03 GMT -7
After 10 years of using Brake Lites, yes, there is - some, slight, 'difference', especially when down to click 3 and 4. Call it what you want, it's there.
Still worth it.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Aug 30, 2016 8:49:53 GMT -7
I'd love to record the same guitar riff 5x at the different attenuation levels and see you pick which is which.
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Post by meanslide on Aug 30, 2016 9:19:51 GMT -7
Easy, do it.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Aug 31, 2016 0:41:40 GMT -7
Awesome. I'll get to it on the weekend.
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Post by doctorice on Aug 31, 2016 5:45:45 GMT -7
Another mounting option is to use high-strength double-sided tape. 3M makes one, but I don't recall the product number. I used it to mount a BL inside a Z Wreck combo. I ended up selling the amp and shipping it from NY to CA without any issues and wouldn't hesitate to use the tape again for another mount.
I would be cautious about mounting inside a small head, though, fwiw. Might be worth the extra $ for the standalone version.
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Post by ss "Shane" on Aug 31, 2016 6:35:16 GMT -7
I didn't think there was a way to mount a BL inside of a head unit but I had to ask the forum. I've been surprised before by this group of guys. Anyway, thanks to all for putting up with my ignorance lol.
I'm at a crossroads...either a 1X10 Greenback Z cab or a Brake Lite. I feel like I've researched the BL enough to feel good about it.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 31, 2016 6:42:44 GMT -7
I'd love to record the same guitar riff 5x at the different attenuation levels and see you pick which is which. I did this with two attenuators and in five years not one person could tell which was which. Still posted here somewhere, but I'm not certain the links work anymore. Edit: Yes, the links were broken, so I fixed them, and you can hear my take on it from 2007. The test could be improved by use of two things: A reamping technique so that exactly the same playing is in each clip; Examples of both clean and dirty tones. I always meant to do that, but never got around to it. Here it is here: Finally the Attenuator TestNo cheating now - listen first, then read the thread to find out which was which.
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Post by meanslide on Aug 31, 2016 9:39:18 GMT -7
Thanks for the post Steve. Listening on studio monitors, I can hear a slight difference, but not much.
The OP was asking about a BL to use with a Ghia to bring the volume down. I don't believe he wants to attenuate and then normalize things to make it 'just as loud' (what would be the point). In his case (and mine since I also play a Ghia), there will be some 'loss' when you click down. Whatever you want to call it, it's there. If I left a BL on 3 or 4 clicks down when I last played, as soon as I fire up my amp again, my ears can tell something is amiss.
So, when he said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", it would be dishonest to say "There is absolutely NO tone loss, man!"
I was just trying to give him the real scoop on my experience with a BL and a Ghia.
As stated before, it's still worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 10:24:33 GMT -7
At a few clicks, there really is no difference. It's your ears playing tricks on you.
Now, if you're trying to crank a Maz 18's volume and master, and then attenuate it for playing in a bedroom setting, you're going to lose treble frequencies unless you use a re-amping attenuator like the Fryette. We're talking about at least 30dB's of attenuation at that point.
For home and recording, I just switched over to using Weber Mass Lites. Having the treble compensation switches is outstanding. For live use, though, the Brake Lite is much easier to manage.
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Post by doctorice on Aug 31, 2016 15:19:20 GMT -7
Let me add this to the discussion, as I always do: If the speaker is distorting / being pushed / whatever as part of "your tone" and you lower the power going to the speaker there's a chance you're indeed changing the tone. But I don't think it's fair to say that the attenuator circuitry is "sucking tone".
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Post by ss "Shane" on Aug 31, 2016 15:33:34 GMT -7
⬆️ Very interesting info and entertaining as well...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Aug 31, 2016 16:52:20 GMT -7
Thanks for the post Steve. Listening on studio monitors, I can hear a slight difference, but not much. The OP was asking about a BL to use with a Ghia to bring the volume down. I don't believe he wants to attenuate and then normalize things to make it 'just as loud' (what would be the point). In his case (and mine since I also play a Ghia), there will be some 'loss' when you click down. Whatever you want to call it, it's there. If I left a BL on 3 or 4 clicks down when I last played, as soon as I fire up my amp again, my ears can tell something is amiss. So, when he said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", it would be dishonest to say "There is absolutely NO tone loss, man!" I was just trying to give him the real scoop on my experience with a BL and a Ghia. As stated before, it's still worth it. You miss the point of the entire post. Normalizing was the method used to keep you from hearing a volume difference, which is what is really causing your perceptual change, not tone loss. You will have exactly the same perception if you use a good master volume to turn down after you've been playing full up. Something's missing - volume, especially in the lows, but also in the highs. If you look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, it is described very well and it is known throughout the recording community. It is actually why many old Hi-Fi amps had a "Loudness" button on them: When you turn the volume down low, you perceive a tone loss (lower perception of bass, especially). The Loudness button puts it back. The fact that you could not tell the difference between the clips demonstrates there is very little tone loss - the perception is not from the attenuator, it is from your brain not hearing the same volume as before. This is exactly why we all say the best way to use an attenuator is to set it to the most attenuation, adjust your amp for the best sound, and then if you need more volume, turn up. Guys who do that have a very positive experience, while guys who use the attenuator to turn down almost always say it sucks tone. It doesn't. It's your brain.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 17:11:49 GMT -7
Thanks for the post Steve. Listening on studio monitors, I can hear a slight difference, but not much. The OP was asking about a BL to use with a Ghia to bring the volume down. I don't believe he wants to attenuate and then normalize things to make it 'just as loud' (what would be the point). In his case (and mine since I also play a Ghia), there will be some 'loss' when you click down. Whatever you want to call it, it's there. If I left a BL on 3 or 4 clicks down when I last played, as soon as I fire up my amp again, my ears can tell something is amiss. So, when he said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", it would be dishonest to say "There is absolutely NO tone loss, man!" I was just trying to give him the real scoop on my experience with a BL and a Ghia. As stated before, it's still worth it. You miss the point of the entire post. Normalizing was the method used to keep you from hearing a volume difference, which is what is really causing your perceptual change, not tone loss. You will have exactly the same perception if you use a good master volume to turn down after you've been playing full up. Something's missing - volume. If you look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, it is described very well and it is known throughout the recording community. It is actually why many old Hi-Fi amps had a "Loudness" button on them: When you turn the volume down low, you perceive a tone loss. The Loudness button puts it back. The fact that you could not tell the difference between the clips demonstrates there is very little tone loss - the perception is not from the attenuator, it is from your brain not hearing the same volume as before. This is exactly why we all say the bet way to use an attenuator is to set it to the most attenuation, adjust your amp for the best sound, and then if you need more volume, turn up. Guys who do that have a very positive experience, while guys who use the attenuator to turn down almost always say it sucks tone. It doesn't. It's your brain. If only our brains had treble compensation switches and were true bypass!
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Post by meanslide on Aug 31, 2016 19:58:28 GMT -7
Thanks for the post Steve. Listening on studio monitors, I can hear a slight difference, but not much. The OP was asking about a BL to use with a Ghia to bring the volume down. I don't believe he wants to attenuate and then normalize things to make it 'just as loud' (what would be the point). In his case (and mine since I also play a Ghia), there will be some 'loss' when you click down. Whatever you want to call it, it's there. If I left a BL on 3 or 4 clicks down when I last played, as soon as I fire up my amp again, my ears can tell something is amiss. So, when he said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", it would be dishonest to say "There is absolutely NO tone loss, man!" I was just trying to give him the real scoop on my experience with a BL and a Ghia. As stated before, it's still worth it. You miss the point of the entire post. Normalizing was the method used to keep you from hearing a volume difference, which is what is really causing your perceptual change, not tone loss. You will have exactly the same perception if you use a good master volume to turn down after you've been playing full up. Something's missing - volume, especially in the lows, but also in the highs. If you look at the Fletcher-Munson curves, it is described very well and it is known throughout the recording community. It is actually why many old Hi-Fi amps had a "Loudness" button on them: When you turn the volume down low, you perceive a tone loss (lower perception of bass, especially). The Loudness button puts it back. The fact that you could not tell the difference between the clips demonstrates there is very little tone loss - the perception is not from the attenuator, it is from your brain not hearing the same volume as before. This is exactly why we all say the bet way to use an attenuator is to set it to the most attenuation, adjust your amp for the best sound, and then if you need more volume, turn up. Guys who do that have a very positive experience, while guys who use the attenuator to turn down almost always say it sucks tone. It doesn't. It's your brain. I did not miss the point of your post. I believe most here have missed the point of the OP post. We can talk all day about Fletch&Munster curves and what not...the point is when you click down to 3 or 4 on a BL, plugged straight in to a Ghia, it changes the sound ones ears hear, and not for the better, IMO. When the man said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", I know exactly what he's talking about. Hence the original answer. Thanks for all the input. Just trying to help out ss "Shane" with his question (I hope we didn't scare you away with all the banter :^).
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Post by meanslide on Aug 31, 2016 20:12:10 GMT -7
One last thought ss "Shane". I've found that a BL is a good option if you need to crank it up! but also bring it down for db's sake. If you just need to be quiet, try playing the Ghia at a really low volume first. It is still has a really sweet tone around 9 or below on the V. I recall the tone guru Myles Rose saying that most of his playing/recording on a Ghia is done with the volume > 9.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Sept 1, 2016 0:32:45 GMT -7
We can talk all day about Fletch&Munster curves and what not...the point is when you click down to 3 or 4 on a BL, plugged straight in to a Ghia, it changes the sound ones ears hear, and not for the better, IMO. When the man said "I don't wanna lose ANY Ghia tone and richness.", I know exactly what he's talking about. Hence the original answer. This is turning more into an argument for playing loud no matter what than pro/con of attenuation then. Walls aren't going to shake and speakers aren't going to distort at bedroom volume. If that's what you mean by tone loss, that's just not achievable. But that's not the Brake Lite causing "tone loss". That's just having less fun playing at low volumes no matter the amp or attenuator.
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Post by ss "Shane" on Sept 1, 2016 9:35:15 GMT -7
Hey Meanslide, y'all didn't scare me away lol! I've read and analyzed every statement regarding the BL and most certainly appreciate everybodies willingness to help out. Musicians can be a extremely expressive when dealing with tone, among other things music related.
The beauty of all this is that I get to be fortunate enough to have a glimpse into other musician's mindsets or skills that has helped me learn so many things, not only BL experiences. My playing is decent, good enough for local entertainment, for making a band sound better as a whole and an occasional compliment, but I've been so sheltered when it comes to things involving tone and equipment. That just comes with being a small town country boy I guess.
Anyway, I take each and every Z Forum statement with high regard!
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Post by zpilot on Sept 1, 2016 14:44:22 GMT -7
It's not the tone that get changed. It's the feel of the amp. As you add more attenuation your amp is seeing more of a resistance load vs a reactive load and it changes the way the amp "pushes back". This is assuming your attenuator is the resistance type. There are some that do have a reactive load. I like those better. If you use an attenuator all of the time I suppose you get used to that feel. Heck, if I played a Pod long enough I'd probably get used to that.
A good musician playing any instrument (not just electric guitar) will tell you that you can't show "feel" on an O-scope.
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Post by -=Charlie=- on Nov 17, 2016 10:58:08 GMT -7
Thank you all for the lesson on what this does. Since I just bought a DB4 2x12, this looks like what I need for those late night early morning sessions.
-=Charlie=-
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Post by zpilot on Nov 21, 2016 9:51:33 GMT -7
An Air Brake will be perfect for that.
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