bartc
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Post by bartc on Jan 21, 2016 19:56:18 GMT -7
Why do Z Wrecks cost so much compared to other Dr. Z amps with more features, and components? This is a serious question that has a "good answer" that I would like to know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 20:26:03 GMT -7
Play one, you'll see.
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Post by purpletele on Jan 21, 2016 20:52:10 GMT -7
Bartc,
I'll take a stab at an answer.
The majority of the product line has a very thin profit margin. The cost of a new Maz Jr head is $1600 so after packaging and shipping to the distributers it may cost them $1300 for a finished product delivered.
I would guess that the majority of the product line pays for Overhead for the company. I think the Z Wreck and Z-Lux are priced to pay for the top level Technician, the extra time for High Performance work and testing, and a reasonable mark up.
I think the cost of the Z wreck is commiserate with other high end Boutique Amps. It seems that the majority product line is less expensive than other equivalent amplifiers.
I am a big fan of small business and I admire the Dr. Z Amplification business for a number of reasons. I am most impressed with the depth and quality of the products with an incredible price point.
I'll bet the good Doctor is curious to see the responses and perception of your very question.
That's my 2 cents.
BV
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 21:20:57 GMT -7
Bartc, I'll take a stab at an answer. The majority of the product line has a very thin profit margin. The cost of a new Maz Jr head is $1600 so after packaging and shipping to the distributers it may cost them $1300 for a finished product delivered. I would guess that the majority of the product line pays for Overhead for the company. I think the Z Wreck and Z-Lux are priced to pay for the top level Technician, the extra time for High Performance work and testing, and a reasonable mark up. I think the cost of the Z wreck is commiserate with other high end Boutique Amps. It seems that the majority product line is less expensive than other equivalent amplifiers. I am a big fan of small business and I admire the Dr. Z Amplification business for a number of reasons. I am most impressed with the depth and quality of the products with an incredible price point. I'll bet the good Doctor is curious to see the responses and perception of your very question. That's my 2 cents. BV Excellent response. It's all economies of scale. My adult job is working for a large packaging manufacturer and we play this game every day. It's much more beneficial for Doc to sell 100 Z Wrecks at $3000 with $1000 gross profit in there (hypothetical) then it would be for him to sell 200 Z Wrecks at $2500 with $600 profit in there. Sure, he'd net an extra $20,000 and those extra numbers look great on the year end reports, but is that worth the extra time, manpower and overhead for an additional 20% return? Maybe it is, I don't know. I think the Z Wreck is an incredible amp for the price - even a bargain, if you will. If I could properly utilize its services, I'd happily pay that price for the amp. I've said it time and time again - I've played A LOT of amps - when you talk about tone, quality, price, customer service, reliability, American manufactured handwired tube amps, Doc's creations are the best value on the market today.
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Post by KeithA on Jan 22, 2016 4:02:02 GMT -7
Without speculating on margins, mark-ups, etc it might be easier to look at the parts first.
The two main things that jump out at me are (i) four NOS EL84s and (ii) serious trannies with the extra tap for the speed/comfort switch. I'm sure the trannies in the Z-Wreck are more expensive than the rest of the line up. As well, that tranny is likely proprietary to the Z-Wreck (smaller purchase volumes) and therefore more expensive to buy.
im sure are a few more items like this that contribute the the price.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jan 22, 2016 6:48:07 GMT -7
Lots of good responses but I think irreversal's answer nails the essence of it. Whatever is inside the Wrecks, it's tone is magical. Plus I've looked at the components, do,you have any idea how expensive Unicorn blood and fairy dust are? Well, they ain't cheap. I'm quoting a post below I made in another thread which explains my position on the Wreck: "Jan 7, 2016 13:36:21 GMT -6 Norrin Radd said: Well, I've never played a Z wreck until this afternoon. A buddy and I went out to lunch right next to a store that carries Dr. Z's. We went to the store afterwards to mess around and they had one of the new black Z wreck combos. We grabbed a custom shop Stratocaster and played through that Z wreck for about an hour. After we were done, we both agreed that this was the best amp either of us have ever played through. None others were even close. On the way home, we were scheming ways how we could come up with the dough for each of us to get one! One of the things we both loved about it was the high end sparkle/chime. I can't imagine doing anything to that amplifier that would de-emphasize that shimmery factor. It was absolutely perfect the way it was. We also both agreed that we liked it best with the attenuator on zero! Yeah – Sure it was loud, but man, it was BEAUTIFUL! Nothing but smiles from us. " That buddy and I are still scheming and I will have a Z Wreck some day. Once you hear it and really play it, you'll know - and it won't bother you that it took however many powdered dragon's teeth to make it. It's tone is more than worth every single penny it costs. And that coming from someone who doesn't have much in the way of pennies.
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Post by BritInvasion on Jan 22, 2016 7:21:36 GMT -7
Without speculating on margins, mark-ups, etc it might be easier to look at the parts first. The two main things that jump out at me are (i) four NOS EL84s and (ii) serious trannies with the extra tap for the speed/comfort switch. I'm sure the trannies in the Z-Wreck are more expensive than the rest of the line up. As well, that tranny is likely proprietary to the Z-Wreck (smaller purchase volumes) and therefore more expensive to buy. im sure are a few more items like this that contribute the the price. ^This. There's some very expensive iron in that amp. And it's not like Doc could order just a dozen custom transformers from a manufacturer. They typically will have a minimum order quantity , times that by the high unit price = $$$$$ he has to front.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 11:01:06 GMT -7
It's the top of the crop when it comes to the Z lineup in my opinion...I want one badly! Someday, I may get crap paid for and be able to add one to my set up. I can only imagine just how nice one sounds in person. I have just heard clips and it blows my mind!
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Post by rcrecelius on Jan 22, 2016 11:35:06 GMT -7
Another important piece(IMO) is that this amp was designed in collaboration with Ken Fisher who's Trainwreck amplifiers fetch upwards of $10,000 dollars these days! And for all we know, Doc may be sending Ken's widow some of the proceeds.
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TB72
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Post by TB72 on Jan 22, 2016 18:12:09 GMT -7
In addition to the transformers and the NOS tubes...Celestion Golds (and Blues in the head/cab version) don't come cheap either.
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Post by purpletele on Jan 22, 2016 20:06:50 GMT -7
Another important piece(IMO) is that this amp was designed in collaboration with Ken Fisher who's Trainwreck amplifiers fetch upwards of $10,000 dollars these days! And for all we know, Doc may be sending Ken's widow some of the proceeds. I thought that there could be royalties established with the sale of each Z Wreck. If that is the case then I applaud that agreement.
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Post by pcns on Jan 22, 2016 20:17:35 GMT -7
It's an amazing amp. The sound is fantastic. Could be twice the price and still be worth it.
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Post by purpletele on Jan 22, 2016 20:24:41 GMT -7
Did you buy Mike's?
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Post by Eddie on Jan 22, 2016 20:48:48 GMT -7
The amp is that good.
The better question might be why in the world don't the other amps in Z's lineup cost more?
Eddie
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Post by detuned on Jan 22, 2016 21:34:53 GMT -7
Its like Todd said: cheap at twice the price.
Don't believe me? Take a look at what other manufacturers change for an amp from this "family" and of this quality.
Not that *I* can afford one, but that's got nothing to do with what a great amp this is.
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TB72
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Post by TB72 on Jan 22, 2016 22:29:04 GMT -7
Legacy amp for me. Took me a couple years to save up for it, but that TONE was worth the wait.
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Post by muZician on Jan 23, 2016 2:21:41 GMT -7
you must compare the Zwreck with a Trainwreck Rocket and only afterwards with other Zs: the design was done in collaboration with Ken Fisher and the components used are quite expensive, the best available. If you play one you will know why it costs more, as stated above
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Post by harry on Jan 27, 2016 16:34:20 GMT -7
I'm guessing it is the high end parts and maybe royalties... Yeah I gotta have one too!
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Post by smolder on Jan 27, 2016 18:31:01 GMT -7
Modern pricing is based more upon what you get for the price in terms of benefit. Demand has an impact on that. It's called value.
The cost of materials is secondary. Thinking in terms of cost + profit is very old school. Not trying to be snarky, but it's not 1950 anymore. Research the cost of manufacturing an iPhone. Value and demand drive what you pay for a product.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 18:56:24 GMT -7
Modern pricing is based more upon what you get for the price in terms of benefit. Demand has an impact on that. It's called value. The cost of materials is secondary. Thinking in terms of cost + profit is very old school. Not trying to be snarky, but it's not 1950 anymore. Research the cost of manufacturing an iPhone. Value and demand drive what you pay for a product. For mass produced items, yes. For a handmade item like a boutique amp, and the Z Wreck in particular, it's cost + mark up + exclusivity premium. As amazing as the Wreck sounds, part of the allure is that not everyone can afford one.
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Post by smolder on Jan 27, 2016 19:11:29 GMT -7
Modern pricing is based more upon what you get for the price in terms of benefit. Demand has an impact on that. It's called value. The cost of materials is secondary. Thinking in terms of cost + profit is very old school. Not trying to be snarky, but it's not 1950 anymore. Research the cost of manufacturing an iPhone. Value and demand drive what you pay for a product. For mass produced items, yes. For a handmade item like a boutique amp, and the Z Wreck in particular, it's cost + mark up + exclusivity premium. As amazing as the Wreck sounds, part of the allure is that not everyone can afford one. The company's job is not to accommodate your affordability. It's to make great amps. By and large, Dr Z amps are damn good and Ver affordable in comparison to other high end amps. Have you priced a Trainwreck from Komet? I think your formula is a bit cynical.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 19:27:08 GMT -7
For mass produced items, yes. For a handmade item like a boutique amp, and the Z Wreck in particular, it's cost + mark up + exclusivity premium. As amazing as the Wreck sounds, part of the allure is that not everyone can afford one. The company's job is not to accommodate your affordability. It's to make great amps. By and large, Dr Z amps are damn good and Ver affordable in comparison to other high end amps. Have you priced a Trainwreck from Komet? I think your formula is a bit cynical. I agree x 10000. I've said numerous times on this forum that there is no better value in terms of cost, reliability, tone, performance,feel, customer service, etc. in a handmade American tube amp right now. It's why I've owned three Z's and have a fourth on the way. However, you proved my point. I've never played a Trainwreck, but with only 100 or so around, demand outweighs supply and they cost a fortune. Do they sound and feel phenomenal? Probably. Are they worth $10,000? Apparently, because people will pay that for them. Pricing based on exclusivity is alive and well in guitar and amp manufacturing. See, Two Rock, Divided By 13, Gibson and Fender Custom Shop pricing. I work in manufacturing, my view is not cynical, it's realistic.
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Post by Jacques Belanger on Jan 27, 2016 19:52:49 GMT -7
Well, without saying too much.... it comes down to this... #1 - Ken Fisher = Trainwreck amps. The amp was designed hand in hand with him...that alone is worth the price. #2 Transformers - they are custom built and VERY expensive. #3 Parts - There are many many parts inside a Z-Wreck that are Unique to it. No other Z model uses them so the parts cost is higher. #4 Tubes #5 Speakers #6 Labour....because of the unique design of the amp, they actually take longer to make....cause they need to go slower to make sure there isn't any mistakes. Honestly, and I mean this with all seriousness and zero sarcasm.... could you build one for the same price? I actually build guitars for a living...and I have been inside a real Z-wreck. As I was looking at it, I even considered building a Z-wreck style amp.... and decided NOT to. Because after having calculated all of my costs....and not even factoring in any money for labour.... the savings was minimal. (never mind the ethical dilema of cloning an amp.... which isn't cool at all) I honestly have NO idea how he builds them as cheaply as he does.... Yes the Z-wreck is expensive.... and as soon as I have the money...I'll be buying one as well.
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Post by muZician on Jan 27, 2016 23:36:53 GMT -7
Well, without saying too much.... it comes down to this... #1 - Ken Fisher = Trainwreck amps. The amp was designed hand in hand with him...that alone is worth the price. #2 Transformers - they are custom built and VERY expensive. #3 Parts - There are many many parts inside a Z-Wreck that are Unique to it. No other Z model uses them so the parts cost is higher. #4 Tubes #5 Speakers #6 Labour....because of the unique design of the amp, they actually take longer to make....cause they need to go slower to make sure there isn't any mistakes. Honestly, and I mean this with all seriousness and zero sarcasm.... could you build one for the same price? I actually build guitars for a living...and I have been inside a real Z-wreck. As I was looking at it, I even considered building a Z-wreck style amp.... and decided NOT to. Because after having calculated all of my costs....and not even factoring in any money for labour.... the savings was minimal. (never mind the ethical dilema of cloning an amp.... which isn't cool at all) I honestly have NO idea how he builds them as cheaply as he does.... Yes the Z-wreck is expensive.... and as soon as I have the money...I'll be buying one as well. +10000 the ZWreck is cheap if you compare it with amps of its class. you pay no premium charge for a high class amp. it is just a high class amp with the most affordable price in its category
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Jan 29, 2016 9:56:35 GMT -7
Why do Z Wrecks cost so much compared to other Dr. Z amps with more features, and components? This is a serious question that has a "good answer" that I would like to know. A high-end Porsche is cool, but.... a Ferrari F-12 is waaay cooler.
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bartc
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by bartc on Jan 29, 2016 19:41:13 GMT -7
I thank you all for your insightful input. You have me thinking. I never said or thought a Z Wreck was overpriced, but wanted to know your thoughts about the pricing.
What would you pay for one of the first three ever built?
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Post by simpleton on Jan 29, 2016 19:50:17 GMT -7
Mostly it seems to me that the only factor that really changes used ZWreck prices would be the tolex and valence....as the silver ones cost more. First three or last three, to me, wouldn't make me want to pay more or less.
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Jan 29, 2016 21:34:34 GMT -7
I played the first one(production) on stage in a loud band setting. My 2014 combo has the same mojo. While I would love to have that #1 for sentimental reasons (and the Harvey wood head shell), I am continually amazed at how good the combo sounds with every guitar/pickup combination I plug into it.
Just last night, while working on a project, I caught myself just standing and staring at the amp in complete disbelief of the tone that was coming out of it. Been a while since that has happened.
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Post by DRZ on Jan 30, 2016 4:08:11 GMT -7
I played the first one(production) on stage in a loud band setting. My 2014 combo has the same mojo. While I would love to have that #1 for sentimental reasons (and the Harvey wood head shell), I am continually amazed at how good the combo sounds with every guitar/pickup combination I plug into it. Just last night, while working on a project, I caught myself just standing and starring at the amp in complete disbelief of the tone that was coming out of it. Been a while since that has happened. Can I get an AMEN....... DR.Z
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Jan 30, 2016 7:48:51 GMT -7
AMEN!!
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