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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 17:00:34 GMT -7
I didn't want to flood the Monza section with another thread, so I figured I'd bring this one to the tubes section.
Any recommendations to solid replacement options for Monza tubes? Mine shipped with a JJ ECC883 in V1, a Sovtek 12AX7LPS in V2 and 2 JJ EL84's. Looking for something to maybe round out and tighten up the sound a little bit. I'm not looking for chugga chugga metal tight, just a little less flab. I know EL84's, in general, are a bit loose when pushed too hard, but I can tell that a tighter tone is somewhere in that Monza circuit!
I already dropped another JJ in V2 and liked how that sounded. I've got some Mullard 12AX7's that I dropped in the Maz 18 and a set of JJ EL844's that I pulled out of My Maz 38. Any idea if the 844's will jive with the Monza? I heard they were no bueno for the Ghia and most 2 EL84 amps.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Dec 1, 2015 18:58:04 GMT -7
I've got in mine:
NOS GE 12AX7/ECC83/6681 (V1) Sovtek 12AX7LPS (V2) Electro-Harmonix EL84EH (V3–V4) Sovtek 5AR4 (V5)
The NOS GE is a real nice, proper 12AX7; and the Sovtek LPS is generally really good in the Phase Inverter spot (V2 in the Monza). And the EH's, well, are just because I like 'em a little better than JJ 84's.
If anything, I'd tell you to replace your JJ in V1--because people either love or hate JJ 12AX7's. But it seems that you might like them... in which case I'd tell you not to change anything.
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Post by jimmysmith on Dec 1, 2015 19:02:44 GMT -7
whats the diff, Mark, in the EH's and the JJ's to you? jjs seem real bright loud and middy, but i have other amps like the monza where the manufacturer recommends and uses EH tubes. ialways thought they were weak, but maybe i am wrong,, im probably going to use this monza live next year and i want a variety of ideas on particular tubes i can use.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 20:03:09 GMT -7
I do like the JJ in V2, however, it was brand new from my new Maz 18. I like Mullards in the preamp section of the Maz, so once I got it, I put the Mullards from my Maz 38 in there and yanked out the JJ's. In all fairness, my Monza was a new old stock 2012 model that I got a smoking deal on, so I'm not sure how old these tubes are. Looking at the Tubestore website, their Monza retube kit includes the exact same tubes I received mine with, so they've probably been in there for almost 4 years. I could just like the JJ in V2 because it's new and that Sovtek LPS might be past its prime.
I was thinking about the Eurotubes High Gain Option or the Gold Pin Option. The Gold Pin option claims "really rich and smooth tone with less grit" which is what I'm looking for. I've never really fallen for the gold pin hype, but for an extra $13 it might be worth a shot.
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Post by simpleton on Dec 1, 2015 20:31:06 GMT -7
I've always just bought what Dr Z suggests on the website.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 20:52:52 GMT -7
I've got in mine: NOS GE 12AX7/ECC83/6681 (V1) Sovtek 12AX7LPS (V2) Electro-Harmonix EL84EH (V3–V4) Sovtek 5AR4 (V5) The NOS GE is a real nice, proper 12AX7; and the Sovtek LPS is generally really good in the Phase Inverter spot (V2 in the Monza). And the EH's, well, are just because I like 'em a little better than JJ 84's. If anything, I'd tell you to replace your JJ in V1--because people either love or hate JJ 12AX7's. But it seems that you might like them... in which case I'd tell you not to change anything. Solid call, Mark. I just dropped a Mullard 12AX7 in V1, put the LPS back into V2 and it was night and day difference. The bass strings were flubby and flat with that JJ in there. Looks like V1 is where I need to do some testing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 20:57:08 GMT -7
I've always just bought what Dr Z suggests on the website. While I generally trust the good Doc's judgement, I look at tubes like guitar strings. One man's apple pie is another man's Brussels sprouts. Especially with Z amps, they are so well made that they are sensitive to every little variable. When I used to play Boogies, you could change tubes, guitars, pickups, whatever you wanted, and that amp was pretty much going to sound the same regardless.
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Post by simpleton on Dec 1, 2015 23:12:02 GMT -7
I've always just bought what Dr Z suggests on the website. While I generally trust the good Doc's judgement, I look at tubes like guitar strings. One man's apple pie is another man's Brussels sprouts. Especially with Z amps, they are so well made that they are sensitive to every little variable. When I used to play Boogies, you could change tubes, guitars, pickups, whatever you wanted, and that amp was pretty much going to sound the same regardless. I for some reason thought that the Volume knob was connected to the V1 and the Drive to the V2 and so I thought both positions might change it. Does the V 2 really not matter much? I don't have a ton of tube smarts as I haven't had a great deal of interesting experience but I kinda wondered about NOS EL84 for the Monza ...do you think the gain of the Monza will just wear everything out equally or do you think NOS would take it and last longer? Mark has it held up on the preamp V1 better for you than the newer stuff? I recently tried a couple TAD 12ax7's and they didn't last long. I think I like JJ because they are cheap and I always see them described as rugged. It goes with my rugged NW style to also use a rugged tube
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 0:52:28 GMT -7
As I understand it, V1 handles the volume, drive and tone controls in the Monza. I believe you can pass a signal through a preamp tube as many as three times. V2 is just the phase inverter which will drive the power tubes. I'm not entirely sure of the tonal impact this has on the amp, though. I sure thought I heard something when I put that JJ in V2. I definitely heard a lot more when I dropped the Mullard in V1 and put the LPS back in V2.
In a three preamp tube amp, V2 usually recovers the signal lost by passing through the tone stack. When you get into four preamp tube territory, you're usually talking cascading gain sections in big bottle amps.
But maybe someone with the technical wherewithal can chime in and set us straight.
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Post by sharkboy on Dec 2, 2015 6:56:53 GMT -7
A phase inverter: V2, in this case, does not usually impart very much character to the sound (I don't know the variety of PI it uses, but most popular amps use variants of a long tail PI.) Except under unusual circuits- like the Orange- the PI doesn't recover volume. In most arrangements, it isn't actually adding gain, though it's still considered a gain stage. What we want in V2 is the most accurate reproduction of what came in: the LPS is perfect here- as good as any current production tube I've heard. It can be a little noisy, and I've heard complaints about reliability- though mine have been fine over the years.
V1 should be your "season-to-taste" color tube. This is the most important tone tube in most amps. Read every review, but they're not expensive and you can try a lot. One person's "airy" is another person's "brittle;" one person's "solid" is another person's "lifeless," so try not to put too much stock in reviews. The LPS is also nice for a Voxish front end if the amp is too dark.
If it's still missing something, don't give up. There are lots of EL84s being made and there is a fair amount of difference between them. Just make sure that the ones can deal with the voltage of your amp.
It's even worth trying a few different rectifier tubes, as you may want more sag or want more bass. Only substitute varieties allowed by Z, but there are several options available now for 5AR4s. Sometimes, the power supply is a huge contributor to tone problems (haven't seen that with a Z, though.)
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Dec 2, 2015 7:10:10 GMT -7
whats the diff, Mark, in the EH's and the JJ's to you? jjs seem real bright loud and middy, but i have other amps like the monza where the manufacturer recommends and uses EH tubes. ialways thought they were weak, but maybe i am wrong,, im probably going to use this monza live next year and i want a variety of ideas on particular tubes i can use. You know, it could be just my imagination--or the "placebo effect"--but I kinda find the JJ's a little bold/brash/hard whereas I find the EH's a little smoother and more soft/jangly/musical all-around. Again, it's subtle but I think it's there. I actually made this switch back when JJ was having some reliability issues, and Doc had temporarily switched over to using EH's in his EL-84 amps. I liked what I heard out of my new EH amp, so I stuck with 'em. (From what I know, the JJ's are perfectly good now, and Doc's using 'em again in all his stuff.)
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Dec 2, 2015 8:46:30 GMT -7
Mark has it held up on the preamp V1 better for you than the newer stuff? Well, yeah it has. Actually I like to put NOS stuff (assuming it's of excellent quality) in V1 in any amp because that is almost always the most sensitive spot that will make or break "good tone." The golden rule always applies, though—know & trust your tube retailer. As far as how long it'll last, well... preamp tubes last way, way longer than power tubes in almost any amp; the only issue would be from mechanical wear & tear & vibration because my Monza's a combo, where the tubes get slightly more physically (not necessarily electrically) abused.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 9:05:33 GMT -7
I just ordered up a batch of different 12AX7's from the Tube Store. Some Mullards, EHX's, Tung Sols and a Gold Lion. We'll see how it goes.
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Post by simpleton on Dec 2, 2015 10:11:50 GMT -7
Fun you guys! Instead of a batch of cookies for Christmas, we could do a batch of tubes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 10:47:28 GMT -7
Fun you guys! Instead of a batch of cookies for Christmas, we could do a batch of tubes. Hell yeah! I'll take one preamp tube platter for Christmas, thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 18:45:21 GMT -7
Just spent my day rolling some 12AX7's and I'm down to two: the Genalex Gold Lion and the Mullard CV4004. If I could combine the strengths of these two into one 12AX7, I think we'd have a clearcut winner for V1 in the Monza...
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Post by jkramsey1991 on Dec 8, 2015 8:27:48 GMT -7
Anyone swapped in a lower gain V1 like a at7 or 5751? Thinking that may be a cool sound to lower the gain a bit.
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Post by simpleton on Dec 8, 2015 9:55:16 GMT -7
Anyone swapped in a lower gain V1 like a at7 or 5751? Thinking that may be a cool sound to lower the gain a bit. I tried the 5751 before. It seemed like it made the notes rounder. At that time it didn't stay in longer than a week or two, and then I just realized that the Monza is into high gain and so a low gain tube wasn't changing her genetic DNA. I would try it again as my memory says it sounded good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 15:50:37 GMT -7
A 5751 in the Monza would be like neutering your dog. He'd still be your dog, and for the most part his personality would stay the same, but he'd be different. You know?!?!
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Post by simpleton on Dec 8, 2015 15:54:32 GMT -7
A 5751 in the Monza would be like neutering your dog. He'd still be your dog, and for the most part his personality would stay the same, but he'd be different. You know?!?! ...almost like that but less sutures.
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Post by jkramsey1991 on Dec 8, 2015 17:21:43 GMT -7
Haha I see your point. I'm rocking a non master volume Monza so it's way too loud by the time it gets that awesome tone so I'm using pedals
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Post by simpleton on Dec 8, 2015 19:02:33 GMT -7
Haha I see your point. I'm rocking a non master volume Monza so it's way too loud by the time it gets that awesome tone so I'm using pedals Me too. Does yours have a brake lite? The amp is gonna be loud even with a 5751 it was just a different kind of shape to the overdrive....it didn't nuture the Monza.... The brake lite can help...the Red Fang , which I think you have, is also a very aggressive speaker. The Monza sounded great with WGS Reaper and G12c/s speakers and it also took some edge off because they were lower decibel speakers. If the volume thing stays an issue the MV MOD will be WELL worth it, and makes the amp have a lot more flexibility of volume and tones....at least to me. My first Monza had the MV, but the one I just got doesn't. The brake lite helps and is your easiest solution....the MV would be a whole new palate of colors I think...that's how I feel anyway. A lower decibel speaker will also help and possibly be the least expensive if you guess right the first time....I never guess right the first time.
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Post by jkramsey1991 on Dec 8, 2015 19:23:03 GMT -7
Actually im running through a dr z 2x12 open back with vintage 30 and g12h so it's really loud. I can't get it to overdrive without getting angry neighbors at the door lol
I actually am in love with the big fat cleans this produces so I may just use it as a cleanish platform. It has enough headroom for my current band easily.
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Post by 4eveR8 on Dec 14, 2015 15:13:42 GMT -7
FLUB Irreversal as far as flub control, recto tube and speaker can have a huge influence on the feel of the bass and how hard you can attack with the picking hand. Not sure how applicable to the Monza but on rectification in tube amps in general; solid state recto cap has the quickest attack and firmest bass, NOS GZ34/5AR4 (amperex or Phillips)next, JJ gz34/5AR4 next and Sovtec gz34/5ar4 the softest before changing to 5U4, 5y3... www.kcanostubes.com/content/rectifier-comparison-and-interchangeability-chartZ forum thread about rectifiers... ztalk.proboards.com/thread/6263/on-tube-rectifiers If the same speaker likes the firmer recto or not is fun to find out. It all makes a difference. V1 V2 When I was gigging I used the Monza as a "cleanish platform" too. I put 5751s (nos jan GE) in V1 and v2 of the Monza and love em. In V1 it brought the gain down a little so I could hit the front end with pedals and still be dynamic(very important in a band mix, 2 guitars and keys). Let me use the amps Volume knob more before it got all full blown(more shades of cleanish). In V2 it made for a defined/clearer (less blurry in the upper harmonics) overdriven sound. The lower gain of both preamp tubes does "tame" the amp somewhat but there is still plenty of knob left to twist. BTW-jkramsey1991 one way to get a quasi master volume would be to put a variac in between the amp and the power to externally crank down the voltage coming into the whole amp. I've seen Ry Cooder use this trick on utube somewheres. He even bumped it up for a solo. I have a brake lite and VVR (regulates whole amps voltage internally as apposed to PPIMV) on my Monza. Rarely use BL after getting VVR done. This pony knows many tricks. LOVE this amp. Its attitude is similar to the brownface deluxe... they both devour much larger amps I loved it right outta the box too. Just can't help tinkerin'.
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