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Post by djcakadave on Aug 3, 2015 8:02:44 GMT -7
^^^^^^ It's all about the 5AR4 I'm pretty sure
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 10:55:31 GMT -7
Seems like I remember a post where someone used the el844 tubes in the Zwreck to get a lower output volume. I'm pretty sure he didn't do any re-biasing though. That was probaby me. I ran el844's in my wreck for lower output. Paired with a greenback and brakelite it worked pretty dang good.
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 3, 2015 10:58:02 GMT -7
Seems like I remember a post where someone used the el844 tubes in the Zwreck to get a lower output volume. I'm pretty sure he didn't do any re-biasing though. That was probaby me. I ran el844's in my wreck for lower output. Paired with a greenback and brakelite it worked pretty dang good. Haha! I thought so. I actually just found the post. ztalk.proboards.com/post/675257/threadI'm not gonna lie - It makes curious enough to want to give the Wreck another go! I loved the tone. I just got tired having to brake-lite 3 or 4 clicks to keep it reasonable for the venues.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 10:59:09 GMT -7
And by the way, this m12 mod might be what finally moves me over from the Maz18 to the m12. I love the m12 tone but have always worried about having enough volume on tap. Switchable resistor in this setup would allow me to have different stage volumes for the quieter country band and the loud a** rock band. Nice!
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 3, 2015 11:01:56 GMT -7
Yeah I think it would be a cool mod for the M12. What I'd really like is that half-powered Wreck we keep talking about! But the mods you did to your Wreck might pretty much put it into half-powered land.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 19:22:07 GMT -7
LOL. Half-powered Wreck... the Holy Grail! I think i got pretty close with my Wreck but am awfully tempted to do this with the m12. I've always loved the base tone of this amp, and i'm not a pedal guy.
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 4, 2015 7:20:45 GMT -7
Haha... Yep, the Holy Grail that doesn't exist! LOL. But like you, I am intrigued by the M12 mods as well.
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Post by KeithA on Aug 7, 2015 8:15:37 GMT -7
I really like the colour schemes on the Steve Miller M12s.....especially the larger combo on the left. I usually buy red (and not combos) but I really like the vibe of these....
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 7, 2015 10:20:40 GMT -7
I received a request/order for two M-12's from Steve Miller. Steve needed a rig for a NYC project at Lincoln Center. Steve loves his StangRay sets ( 8 years and counting on the road ) and wanted a lower powered SR , same drive and punch but way less wattage/volume.
So I modded a standard M-12 it came out great, here's what I did. 1) Install a Chinese 5AR4 rectifier. 2) Rebias by replacing 180 Ohm 10 watt bias resistor with a 150 Ohm 10 watt resistor. 3) Replace JJ EL-84's with Low wattage JJ-EL-844 ( request Medium Range Matched set ).
There you go, a nice tonal upgrade and the EL-844's bring the volume down but the 5AR4 brings the tone and drive up. You can leave the JJ-EL-84's in place and have a M-20 then, I would swap out the EH-EL -84's if they came stock . Amps with EH's were built during the JJ tube rattle fiasco.
To help replicate the StangRays overall sound, I built Steve a 1X10 Combo loaded with a Celestion 10" Gold, and a 1X12 combo loaded with a 12" Gold.
DR.Z Hey Doc, any specific reason for going with the Chinese 5AR4 vs a JJ or Sovtek?
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Post by DRZ on Aug 7, 2015 11:27:08 GMT -7
Yes, I find the response to better to my liking in an certain circuits. I find the Chinese to be a bit smoother , and a touch softer, and in some amps I like that. The Sovtek 5AR4 is tighter and bit stiffer, with more punch and in most Marshall voiced amps this works best. Never been too wild about the JJ 5AR4.
Z
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 7, 2015 11:32:40 GMT -7
Yes, I find the response to better to my liking in an certain circuits. I find the Chinese to be a bit smoother , and a touch softer, and in some amps I like that. The Sovtek 5AR4 is tighter and bit stiffer, with more punch and in most Marshall voiced amps this works best. Never been too wild about the JJ 5AR4.
Z Awesome, thanks for the info! And since the M12 was originally designed with a 5y3, I've noticed that you have used a mix of JJ (I think), Sovtek, and NOS. I'm guessing they each give the amp a different response as well.
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Post by doctorice on Aug 23, 2015 14:30:25 GMT -7
Doc brought the 1x10 Steve Miller M12 combo to yesterday's Z Fest. We a/b'd with stock M12 using the same speaker, a 10" Gold. Also a/b's with a StingRay. As more posts about Z Fest arrive, I'm sure this will be a topic.
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Post by djcakadave on Aug 23, 2015 14:40:11 GMT -7
Doc brought the 1x10 Steve Miller M12 combo to yesterday's Z Fest. We a/b'd with stock M12 using the same speaker, a 10" Gold. Also a/b's with a StingRay. As more posts about Z Fest arrive, I'm sure this will be a topic. Tease......................
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Post by smolder on Aug 23, 2015 15:03:02 GMT -7
I've played with this, and while the volume drop isn't huge, it's certainly noticeable. We put the 5Y3 back in as we were looking for smaller volume and more sag. For what it's worth, we used the JJ EL844 tubes, but on eBay I found some NOS EL86/6CW5's and finall got to through them in this afternoon. They sound excellent, were significantly less expensive and I'm guessing will last much longer. The GE/RCA pair are rebranded Philips, made in Holland. The Amperex are of different construction but are also made in Holland. Possibly the most new looking NOS tubes I've ever seen. If you can't find them, shoot me a PM and I'll provide the seller's ID.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Aug 23, 2015 19:55:25 GMT -7
Doc brought the 1x10 Steve Miller M12 combo to yesterday's Z Fest. We a/b'd with stock M12 using the same speaker, a 10" Gold. Also a/b's with a StingRay. As more posts about Z Fest arrive, I'm sure this will be a topic. Tease...................... As Doc had promised, the "mini StangRay" M12 he set-up for Mr. Miller was indeed firmer/more stout on the bottom end and a little more chimey (less soft & round sounding?) than my stock M12. Chalk this up to the beefier 5AR4 rectifier. This was using the EL-84 4's, BTW; overall volume was roughly the same. Doc then swapped in some full-power "standard" EL-84's and the volume went up a bit. So we then compared it to a real-deal StingRay. Really, really close. Didn't quite have that massively punchy bottom-end of the StingRay but, I mean, come on.. ya ain't gonna get that without the Ray's 4 power tubes & big iron. Personally, I still dig my standard M12. But if you want a mini-StangRay, then you should believe the Doc because this is the closest you're gonna get!
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Post by djcakadave on Aug 23, 2015 20:26:34 GMT -7
Mark, Thanks for the update! Guess I'll be tweekin' my M12 very soon
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Post by simpleton on Aug 23, 2015 20:36:45 GMT -7
To much fun guys! Wow, what a great Z Fest...new pedal, new M12 mod...great food and folks. Lots of loud music. New Z Lux....Therapy....gosh so much to hear about.
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Post by doctorice on Aug 24, 2015 6:05:16 GMT -7
Doc brought the 1x10 Steve Miller M12 combo to yesterday's Z Fest. We a/b'd with stock M12 using the same speaker, a 10" Gold. Also a/b's with a StingRay. As more posts about Z Fest arrive, I'm sure this will be a topic. Tease...................... You bet! Mark described it really well. It was great that he brought his combo M12 along so we could do this a/b. At some point, we'll talk about the Antidote/Therapy/Remedy shoot out....
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Post by thorquil on Oct 22, 2015 21:55:45 GMT -7
Maybe I missed it, but is it necessary to change the resistors if you are swapping the power tubes or the recitifier?
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 23, 2015 7:56:37 GMT -7
Maybe I missed it, but is it necessary to change the resistors if you are swapping the power tubes or the recitifier? I believe the resistor swap is mostly for the power tubes to set the bias point.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Oct 23, 2015 8:34:33 GMT -7
Maybe I missed it, but is it necessary to change the resistors if you are swapping the power tubes or the recitifier? I believe the resistor swap is mostly for the power tubes to set the bias point. Well... Doc allowed us to run the amp (which had been re-biased, and had the 5AR4 rectifier in it) with both the EL-844's (lower-power-output tubes) and the regular EL-84's that afternoon. So, this makes me think the re-bias is necessary when using the 5AR4, just to keep voltages in check. That I recall, no 5Y3 rectifier (the typical "stock" M12 recto tube) was run in that amp that day.
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 23, 2015 8:46:37 GMT -7
I believe the resistor swap is mostly for the power tubes to set the bias point. Well... Doc allowed us to run the amp (which had been re-biased, and had the 5AR4 rectifier in it) with both the EL-844's (lower-power-output tubes) and the regular EL-84's that afternoon. So, this makes me think the re-bias is necessary when using the 5AR4, just to keep voltages in check. That I recall, no 5Y3 rectifier (the typical "stock" M12 recto tube) was run in that amp that day. I think you're correct. But, I know that some had ran the 5AR4 with regular output tubes before the mod came along so I'm sure the re-bias isn't a necessity, however, if the Doc does it - it's for a good reason - a tonal reason.
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Post by zm12 on Dec 12, 2015 0:51:01 GMT -7
So its ok to swap the 5y3 with a 5AR4 Rectifier without having to do any other modifications? Are there any positive results with doing this swap? I can get a 5AR4 from a friend of mine for free but wanted to make sure its ok to do it with a stock M12!!
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Post by jimiata on Dec 12, 2015 10:20:06 GMT -7
Yes you can, I did mine last year. I like the more immediate sound of the 5AR4. The resister mod hasn't been tried yet as I've been too busy…one of these days after Christmas.
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Post by zm12 on Dec 12, 2015 16:01:41 GMT -7
I'm going to try it next week. Thanks for the confirmation!
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Post by deluxetwelve on Dec 13, 2015 19:05:12 GMT -7
All of this makes me wonder how a quad of EL844s would go in a Stang Ray, to make it less rowdy?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 8:59:02 GMT -7
Thought pretty seriously about sending mine in for the upgrade, but it's so perfect for what I'm doing right now I don't want to mess with it. Thinking about buying another one, in fact, as a backup. Love this little amp!
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Post by sarvig on Mar 19, 2016 0:36:59 GMT -7
I received a request/order for two M-12's from Steve Miller. Steve needed a rig for a NYC project at Lincoln Center. Steve loves his StangRay sets ( 8 years and counting on the road ) and wanted a lower powered SR , same drive and punch but way less wattage/volume.
So I modded a standard M-12 it came out great, here's what I did. 1) Install a Chinese 5AR4 rectifier. 2) Rebias by replacing 180 Ohm 10 watt bias resistor with a 150 Ohm 10 watt resistor. 3) Replace JJ EL-84's with Low wattage JJ-EL-844 ( request Medium Range Matched set ).
There you go, a nice tonal upgrade and the EL-844's bring the volume down but the 5AR4 brings the tone and drive up. You can leave the JJ-EL-84's in place and have a M-20 then, I would swap out the EH-EL -84's if they came stock . Amps with EH's were built during the JJ tube rattle fiasco.
Hi -Hope I can get a little help so I wont do this upgrade wrong When it says install a Chinese 5AR4 rectifier - where should I do that ? Is the 180 Ohm resistor easy to locate and replace ? - I Know its probely basic knowledge - I always do my own wiring on pedalboards and guitars, but have never messed with amps before - so need a dummy guide. My M12 have a blue 12 Celestion installed - would it be a good choice to replace it with a gold for this upgrade. Greetings from Denmark
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Post by DRZ on Mar 19, 2016 1:43:20 GMT -7
Well sarvig, The amp has a 5Y3 rectifier, largest tube mounted on the end, pull out the 5Y3 and replace it with a Chinese 5AR4. As far as biasing the 180 ohm 10 watt resistor is the largest resistor on the board easy to spot, swap it with a 10 watt 150 ohm. Install JJ EL 844 output tubes and you'll be in business.
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Post by sarvig on Mar 19, 2016 15:18:53 GMT -7
Thanks - I really appreciate it
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