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Post by bloozeman on May 5, 2015 12:22:07 GMT -7
Im torn between an M12 and a Z28. Im tending to favor the M12 as Id like to have an amp that is low wattage for small/medium sized clubs with out being "too much" amp. I already have a Jaz and Maz jr so Ive got 18 20 and 40 watts covered. My concern is, is the M12 got enough punch and power for the small/medium clubs for a blues/rock band and to be heard? Ive read great reviews of the Z28 and its versatility but Im wondering, do I really need another amp thats 22 watts when I already have that covered with the maz and Jaz?
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Post by John on May 5, 2015 13:16:12 GMT -7
Although I have not played an M12..it sounds like it would fit right under a Jaz and Maz. (I've had two maz Jr's)
Have you ever played a Z28? they are very different. Both in feel and tone. (compared to a jaz/maz) Much more mid heavy. I don't consider it nearly as versatile as a jaz/maz. Unless you brakelite, the Z28 could be too much for a club. (It depends on what tone you want, and how loud you want it..or don't want it)
Both the M12 and Z28 share the same preamp. So they'll both have that different feel/tone about them.
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Post by bloozeman on May 5, 2015 13:31:03 GMT -7
Although I have not played an M12..it sounds like it would fit right under a Jaz and Maz. (I've had two maz Jr's) Have you ever played a Z28? they are very different. Both in feel and tone. (compared to a jaz/maz) Much more mid heavy. I don't consider it nearly as versatile as a jaz/maz. Unless you brakelite, the Z28 could be too much for a club. (It depends on what tone you want, and how loud you want it..or don't want it) Both the M12 and Z28 share the same preamp. So they'll both have that different feel/tone about them. No Ive never played neither the M12 nor the Z28. Im leaning towards the M12 because of its smaller wattage and also because its supposed to be very pedal friendly and I love pedals.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on May 5, 2015 13:31:02 GMT -7
Even though they share a similar preamp layout, the M12 in my opinion feels quite different than the Z-28. It's a little more soft & squishy, less mid-punch... maybe more like a MAZ as John suggests. (Case in point: my Bass & Treble knobs on my Z-28 and M12 are not at all dialed-in the same way, even with the same speaker cab & guitar.)
Sorry, blooze, I don't know if this is really answering your question (I don't gig) but I'd offer that the M12 should probably handle a small gig just fine. Speaker selection is probably key. But cross-breed the MAZ & StangRay amps, drop the output and perceived volume down a LOT, and I think you've got the M12.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 15:14:58 GMT -7
I A/B'd a M12 against the Maz18R in a store a few years back. It was actutally the first time i had the pleasure of playing and hearing a Z amp. Both combos, i believe the Maz had a G12H30 and the M12 a blue. The m12 seemed to be about 3/4 the volume of the Maz. Didn't get either cranked all the way as i didn't want to bum out the dudes at the store with my way too loud and sloppy chops (or myself for that matter)! I much preferred the basic tonality of the M12, but i'm a real sucker for an alnico speaker and that might have had something to do with it. I'm not a pedal guy at all and loved the straight tone of the M12. That said, i'm now a Maz18NR owner and am constantly wondering if i could switch over to the M12 and still be loud enough. I know it would work for my country band but not sure for the rock and roll. Guess there's only one way to find out! Hope that helps.
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Post by Abandoned on May 5, 2015 16:24:12 GMT -7
I can answer your question. A M12 with a Z-Best cab will give you enough volume for what you need. Along with that - if you put a 5AR4 rectifier tube in, instead of the 5Y3, you'll get noticeably more punch and headroom and volume. I just did it and was won over immediately. If you want the spongier or softer low end and tonality then just pop the 5Y3 back in. I'd say get a M12 since you don't have that wattage range in your amp collection yet.
I have used my M12 in front of 30-50 people, to 150-200 people, to 600-800 size venue, 1,000 person venue and people, up to a 2,500 seat theatre.
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Post by Abandoned on May 5, 2015 17:26:40 GMT -7
Seriously people are missing out on all the M12 has to offer when they don't try it through a Z-Best cab. They'll invest into an amp with higher wattage, more features but often neglect a really good cab.
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Post by bloozeman on May 5, 2015 17:49:33 GMT -7
I dont have a Z best cabinet but do have a Z 1x12 and an avatar 2x12, I hear that the M12 sounds very big in a 2x12
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Post by Abandoned on May 5, 2015 20:41:23 GMT -7
I play with a friend who has a M12 1x12 combo with a greenback and literally the M12 and Z-Best sound so much better, and WAY louder, and so much more bass/fullness, and punch etc. this is primarily due to the z-Best cab here.
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Post by bnads on May 6, 2015 7:02:08 GMT -7
I'm gonna have a head cab built for my M12 because the combo just gets too much rattle for my tastes - I can only imagine what it would sound like through a Z-Best, but I will confirm that it hangs with my country band in the clean department no prob for gigs we've played with 200-300 person capacity. More than that, I'd have to mic. Comparatively, I couldn't run my Maz18nr loud enough in those same places to get near its sweet spot. The M12 is a great all-around amp...I just wish it has an effect loop.
My combo is set up with a NOS Mullard 5ar4, TAD el-84's, and a Celestion Gold - the cleans are snappy, but rich.
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Post by Abandoned on May 6, 2015 7:59:32 GMT -7
I first had bought a combo and some rattling started after just 2 weeks. Tubes in combos issue overall. So I exchanged it for a head and cab and have been golden ever since.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on May 6, 2015 9:36:50 GMT -7
I had a 1x12 M12 combo with a greenback, and I thought that at full volume it was pretty dang loud. The difference I noticed between it and other low wattage amps is that it has a GREAT range in the volume knob, so the volume doesn't come full on too quick. You can turn it up halfway and think "man this ain't that loud," but when you turn it further you go, "ok now there is the volume." The Maz 18 gets louder FASTER, but the M12 at full volume ain't no bedroom amp.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on May 6, 2015 11:23:09 GMT -7
...The difference I noticed between it and other low wattage amps is that it has a GREAT range in the volume knob, so the volume doesn't come full on too quick. You can turn it up halfway and think "man this ain't that loud," but when you turn it further you go, "ok now there is the volume."... EXACTLY!
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Post by smolder on May 6, 2015 12:10:50 GMT -7
I can answer your question. A M12 with a Z-Best cab will give you enough volume for what you need. Along with that - if you put a 5AR4 rectifier tube in, instead of the 5Y3, you'll get noticeably more punch and headroom and volume. I just did it and was won over immediately. If you want the spongier or softer low end and tonality then just pop the 5Y3 back in. I'd say get a M12 since you don't have that wattage range in your amp collection yet. I have used my M12 in front of 30-50 people, to 150-200 people, to 600-800 size venue, 1,000 person venue and people, up to a 2,500 seat theatre. If you use a loud speaker... Red fang or jbl... It can get loud. i play classic rock/blues with a drummer... 100-150 seat bars, the M12 does just great. Increase the treble and bass past noon and you can drop the volume to reduce headroom... Mine has a 5ar4. I also have a Z28, but have only played it once with the band. People talk about a 3-3-3 setting... I never got it past 10-3-3.
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Post by bloozeman on May 6, 2015 12:29:02 GMT -7
after all Ive read, I think Im going to go with the M12. I can just pull the stock 5y3 rectifier out and install a 5ar4 for more headroom and a little more output? No harm done? also is it a self biasing amp?
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Post by jimiata on May 6, 2015 13:05:03 GMT -7
I have an M12 1x10 with a "gold". The 5ar4 gives the amp an "immediate" feel , I guess some would call it punch. It's not that I dislike the 5y3 recto, I much prefer the 5ar4 for what I play. Volume has not been a problem. The amp is cathode biased, just get matched power tubes when the time comes. Jim
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on May 6, 2015 13:05:10 GMT -7
after all Ive read, I think Im going to go with the M12. I can just pull the stock 5y3 rectifier out and install a 5ar4 for more headroom and a little more output? No harm done? also is it a self biasing amp? I think that's a great choice. You mentioned that the decision was between the M12 and a Z28, but I just don't think the Z28 gains you anything volume/wattage wise since you have a Maz. You want diversification, not multiplication.
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Post by Abandoned on May 6, 2015 13:18:34 GMT -7
after all Ive read, I think Im going to go with the M12. I can just pull the stock 5y3 rectifier out and install a 5ar4 for more headroom and a little more output? No harm done? also is it a self biasing amp? Yes you can just pull the 5Y3 and immediately install the 5AR4, nothing else necessary.
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Post by Jefferson on May 6, 2015 13:24:29 GMT -7
If volume is your main concern, try these three ideas: 1. run it with a super efficient speaker like a blue or gold (I love it with either!). u could also run in a 2x12 2. run a clean boost at the end of your chain above unity to hit your preamp a little hard 3. run your OD's with the volume WAO and then dial in overdrive/distortion to taste
I think you are going to dig this amp!
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Post by bloozeman on May 6, 2015 18:00:34 GMT -7
after all Ive read, I think Im going to go with the M12. I can just pull the stock 5y3 rectifier out and install a 5ar4 for more headroom and a little more output? No harm done? also is it a self biasing amp? Yes you can just pull the 5Y3 and immediately install the 5AR4, nothing else necessary. Is the 5AR4 and GZ34 the same tube? can a GZ34 be installed and get the same output and punch of the 5AR4?
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Post by Abandoned on May 6, 2015 18:09:58 GMT -7
Yes you can just pull the 5Y3 and immediately install the 5AR4, nothing else necessary. Is the 5AR4 and GZ34 the same tube? can a GZ34 be installed and get the same output and punch of the 5AR4? They are the same exact tube, the GZ34 is just the British designation for it. Kinda like 12ax7/ecc83 for preamps tubes
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Post by boudro57 on May 7, 2015 14:18:55 GMT -7
Entering this thread late but I run my M12 through a 1978 Marshall 4x12 with Blackbacks and the 5Y3 and it has plenty of headroom even set on LOW! I agree with abandoned you are missing out not playing this through a larger format cab. I use this head with a Blue in church which is perfect but play out in clubs with the 4x12.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 14:48:30 GMT -7
I love the saggy-ness and compression of the 5Y3. Been running mine at home through a Gold and a G12H30 and it's like buttah; great for low volume practice, but flip the little switch and crank her up and she gets plenty loud for small club stuff, yes. Obviously if you were competing with a busy keyboard player, a horn section and a rhythm guitarist playing through a cranked Twin you'd want to go bigger, but that's not what we're talking about. The Z-28 is a great amp, and plenty loud--I've never even run mine without a Brakelite. A good bit louder than the Maz 18, IMO, and with more carry/punch due to the midrange emphasis. Really, for a club amp you couldn't go wrong either way.
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Post by bnads on May 8, 2015 7:58:31 GMT -7
This is making me very sorry I sold my Z-Best cab...even though I hated carrying it ;-)
Anyone try it through the Z 210 cab?
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Post by Abandoned on May 8, 2015 9:19:18 GMT -7
^ Carrying that can is a pain... the prices we pay for good tone [and not just financially, haha!] I hate carrying it too, but it's worth it
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Post by smolder on May 9, 2015 7:03:21 GMT -7
This is making me very sorry I sold my Z-Best cab...even though I hated carrying it ;-) Anyone try it through the Z 210 cab? Not a Z cab, but I was running mine through a 2x10 with WGC G10c and a G10cs... I got it to be very Fendery at one point. Also put it in a 2x10 combo can with red fangs for a bit... More upper mids, more aggressive, and quite loud... Still had a nice smooth slightly compressed upper range.
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