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Post by edoetsch on Jul 9, 2007 10:13:52 GMT -7
After revealing the identity of the clips, I went straight to 1 vs 6 and 10 vs 14 since they should provide the biggest tone change and I could not really tell any difference.
Great work! I would have no fear buying either attenuator.
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Post by GuitarZ on Jul 9, 2007 10:34:08 GMT -7
For those wondering about the difference between master volume and attenuator, I would say that they're different animals. I've found that moving the master volume from a 9 o'clock position on the Maz Jr to a 3 o'clock position really gives you a different animal. The tone for me got much fuller and you get that pushed power amp thing going on. Basically, things sound very different.
Now with that said and considering this test, I must also say that I've messed with the differences with my headphones on in the studio and was surprised to find less differences than I thought might be there. I think that some of BentTop's observations would probably be true here too. When one takes the volume out of the equation, it might not sound as different as you think.
If I get a chance, I'll see if I can create some quick clips to demo the differences. But, we'll have to see how lazy I might be.
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Post by ruger9 on Jul 9, 2007 10:39:35 GMT -7
After revealing the identity of the clips, I went straight to 1 vs 6 and 10 vs 14 since they should provide the biggest tone change and I could not really tell any difference. +1
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 11, 2007 11:51:59 GMT -7
I think I need to do this again. This test has shown a couple of things I hadn't expected. One is that there was some effect from simply having at least the Hot Plate in the circuit. Could be from the Airbrake as well, but since I didn't capture a "non-attenuated" configuration, I can't say. The other is that my playing varied too much to be a reliable enough indicator. I think I need to use the studio re-amping technique of recording the plain guitar signal and then sending the exact same recording to each configuration. That way when I normalize they should all be exactly the same licks at exactly the same volume. Despite these obvious flaws, I think I definitley learned some things from this. As I said before, I didn't expect to hear as much difference between the two attenuators as I heard. I know they are very close, but I really expected them to be identical. I suppose it's no surprise if you look inside - they are nothing alike past the input jack. Other tests to do, and a Z-Fest to attend to, then maybe we'll revisit this one. Thanks to all who listened and commented - your observations were as interesting as the actual test.
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Post by dixiechicken on Jul 11, 2007 14:00:34 GMT -7
Hi Steve - DC here! Nice work really - doing all that testing. I listened and the differences are very minuscule. Listened through my MOTU 828-MK-II firewire card and a pair of AKG K-240 headphones. I had clip 11 pegged as the most attenuated with the Airbrake. Did not realize you had the THD Hot plate going as well. I'm a fast reader. ;D I thought at first that clip sounded i little more distorted and compressed. But hat would the THD at it's mildest -4 dB setting - right? I have a degree in electrical engineering for what it's worth - I can not offhand find any basic flaw with this test-setup you did. You seem to have the bases pretty well covered. If my coming Weber Minimass 50W will work out like anything near that good I'll be perfectly happy. Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 11, 2007 14:17:53 GMT -7
Hi Steve - DC here! Nice work really - doing all that testing. I listened and the differences are very minuscule. Listened through my MOTU 828-MK-II firewire card and a pair of AKG K-240 headphones. I had clip 11 pegged as the most attenuated with the Airbrake. Did not realize you had the THD Hot plate going as well. I'm a fast reader. ;D I thought at first that clip sounded i little more distorted and compressed. But hat would the THD at it's mildest -4 dB setting - right? I have a degree in electrical engineering for what it's worth - I can not offhand find any basic flaw with this test-setup you did. You seem to have the bases pretty well covered. If my coming Weber Minimass 50W will work out like anything near that good I'll be perfectly happy. Cheers: Dixiechicken Thanks DC. I'm an old Engineering reprobate here - no degree, but that didn't stop me from taking over a whole department of engineers for four years. Got tired of the politics though, and I'm back in the "individual contributor" role, more as a writer than a doer. Over the years though, I've had to design many tests, and this one was actually a lot easier than the Crash Recorder Qualification tests I had to design years ago.
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Post by GuitarZ on Jul 11, 2007 16:00:44 GMT -7
I second (or third or fourth) the soundness of the testing method. I pulled out my engineering degree and figured that I'd knock out a few master volume comparison mp3s. I thought that it would be easier to just record the guitar once into the PC and then replay the same set of licks into the amp.
Hmmm. Not so easy. I recorded the input very cleanly, but the lowered signal level coming out of my sound card was very noisy and was picking up all kinds of computer noise. The card is designed for balanced outputs and our Z's have unbalanced inputs.
Plus, we really do play a little differently depending on how the amp's set up. When I max the master volume, I get a lot of sensitivity and play with more touch than when I crank it down.
I recorded zilch last night. Thanks for the work on the attenuators.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 11, 2007 16:47:42 GMT -7
You probably just saved me a bunch of time. I recall seeing on the Radial Engineering web site a box that studios buy specifically to do the re-amping thing. Probably an impedance and level matching device, and undoubtedly more than I'm willing to pay for one experiment.
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Jul 11, 2007 17:37:04 GMT -7
Wow!!!....great test....I feel really safe about buying an Air Brake now. It's good enough for my ears. good playing by the way.
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Post by compeye on Jul 12, 2007 14:47:24 GMT -7
so, better to wear ear plugs and feel it than to attenuate and......I have just ordered the z brake, but i get the feeling i will probably opt for the ear plugs and feel the stangray
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 12, 2007 19:17:50 GMT -7
The Airbrake works PERFECT with the 'ray. Most gigs I have the Airbrake right at one or two clicks down - not much attenuation, but just about right for stage volume.
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Post by DRZ on Jul 13, 2007 5:53:53 GMT -7
Great job Steve. I truly appreciate the effort involved in the test.
After your NW Z-Fest please give me a call at the shop 216 475 1444.
Z
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 13, 2007 8:59:44 GMT -7
Great job Steve. I truly appreciate the effort involved in the test. After your NW Z-Fest please give me a call at the shop 216 475 1444. Z Thanks Doc, I will.
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Post by Dr.T on Jul 18, 2007 23:56:37 GMT -7
I only want to add this: Usually I pay attention to EQ curve changes as attenuation becomes higher, but if there's no attenuator I don't care about vol effects!! But it's a similar change! I notice a natural difference (mainly with high frequencies) also when I turn up or down my R66 VOL knob, and I'm sure many ather guys may hear this.
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Post by GuitarZ on Jul 23, 2007 19:05:49 GMT -7
I guess that I re-proved BentTop's theory by mistake tonight.
I had the Airbrake dialed in after troubleshooting a speaker buzz problem this weekend. I was using my Marshall and using the Airbrake to figure out if it was the Marshall or the speaker. It's the speaker.
Anyway, I swapped my IsoCab over to the Ghia tonight. I popped on my headphones and realized my volume was off. I remember that I hadn't dialed out the Airbrake. I figured that I'd let it be since it was only down a click or two. I cranked up my mic pre by 6 dB to compensate. It still sounded low, but I just felt like noodling around on the guitar and kept going.
When I was turning everything off, I noticed that the Airbrake was dialed down to bedroom level. It sounded fine. I suppose my situation is unique since I adjust the volume in my headphones rather than being driven off the amp/speaker live sound. But, the tone and feel were there for me.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 23, 2007 19:37:28 GMT -7
;D ;D ;D
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Post by Michael Bartee on Jul 25, 2007 9:04:08 GMT -7
On the Eminence site they used a looper to capture the guitar parts and then played that through each different speaker set up to compare. He most likely had it in line with the amp as he played each stlye part the first time to get the sound and feel of the amp so his playing would be right. It would be great to hear a similar set of clips using the Z Airbrake and a Weber Mini Mass. Anyone got that pair?
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Post by bustertheboy on Dec 24, 2007 16:44:23 GMT -7
Great stuff benttop- I've noticed the same with the weber minimass that you've noticed about the hot plate- the added distortion. The Ghia, with 12BH7 in v2 is pretty clean at 9:30 with no attenuation. It also has quite a bit of headroom. Put attenuation on ( a fair bit ) and you have much less headroom and more distortion. I've got to say it's far from unpleasant- it's a great sound either way. You've just got to allow for it when gigging at louder volumes. Brett
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Dec 24, 2007 18:38:15 GMT -7
Great stuff benttop- I've noticed the same with the weber minimass that you've noticed about the hot plate- the added distortion. The Ghia, with 12BH7 in v2 is pretty clean at 9:30 with no attenuation. It also has quite a bit of headroom. Put attenuation on ( a fair bit ) and you have much less headroom and more distortion. I've got to say it's far from unpleasant- it's a great sound either way. You've just got to allow for it when gigging at louder volumes. Brett Funny thing is, not everyone notices that, and I hadn't noticed it in three years of running the Hot Plate with my Flexi-50, so it's probably not a deal breaker. But it is there.
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Post by Hohn on Dec 26, 2007 17:30:05 GMT -7
Well I hope the point is clear. People hear a tone difference as they attenuate. I have always said that is because of physiological effects that have nothing to do with the well designed attenuator. I think this series helps support my contention, but I could still be mistaken. Doing this kind of test usually has some secondary or tertiary issue that the tester failed to consider. I'm just waiting for the more scientific of the group to point those out. I dunno which is which in your clips, but I hear an umistakable loss of highs with my Hot Plate and Stang Ray-- even just at -4 db. Of course, a slight twist of the cut control gets me back to where I want to be, but nonetheless it occurs. My last hearing test went OK, but my wife can tell you my hearing isn't so hot:) Be advised that I was running an impedance mismatch that may explain it entirely. 8ohm output into 8 ohm hotplate into 16 ohm cab.
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Post by mrdownchild on Jan 8, 2008 21:25:21 GMT -7
Man, that was a fantastic read, and very informative. I've been knocking around the idea of purchasing an Airbrake. I think this pushed me over the edge. I'm sold.
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Post by mrdownchild on Jan 8, 2008 21:27:46 GMT -7
One more thing, great chops....
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 8, 2008 22:31:57 GMT -7
Thanks! I sure like my two Airbrakes. I use both every time I play out.
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Post by hwyman on Jan 9, 2008 1:27:46 GMT -7
Man, that was a fantastic read, and very informative. +1. Thanks, Steve! I was going back and forth about ordering an Air Brake with my Maz Jr., as there are divided opinions.....some say the Maz's MV works well enough, while others say that Air Brake sounds better. I listened and compared the sound clips a few times, and ultimately decided to go ahead and buy the Air Brake. I'd rather have it and know than not have it and wonder.....
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Post by 909one on Jun 25, 2008 15:30:37 GMT -7
What this test really shows is that the differences in tone are pretty negligible.. I can hear the difference the hotplate and the airbrake, but all in all, they are pretty close across the board. Airbrake seems to have a little more lower mids present in all the clips. Whats more important to me, having never used an attenuator, is that you can get a fairly close approximation of a cranked amp while saving your ears abit and preventing your band mates from getting pissing at you for turning up too loud! Also, for recording, having an attenuator seems like the way to go. This has really influenced me to consider getting an attenuator.
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Jun 25, 2008 15:36:11 GMT -7
For recording...I would agree 100%. For live playing...There 'aint nuthin' like feeling the legs of your Levi's flappin'... ;D I know...I have been told to turn down almost everywhere I have ever played. Except............CLEVELAND!!
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Post by groovergeorge on Jun 26, 2008 19:11:49 GMT -7
For recording...I would agree 100%. For live playing...There 'aint nuthin' like feeling the legs of your Levi's flappin'... ;D I know...I have been told to turn down almost everywhere I have ever played. Except............CLEVELAND!! I agree 100% with you there Tony. Kinda like the feeling of that wall of sound hitting you right in the b#lls when your back is to your quadie and your pumping out a mean riff through your stack with a Les Paul. Unfortunately for most of us though you just aren't allowed to play that loud anywhere anymore. Then again i guess our hearing is going to thank us for it. By the way.......I know I'm a little late but congrats on joining the Z'natics club mate!
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Jun 26, 2008 19:17:09 GMT -7
Thx Bruthr...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 19, 2009 21:20:42 GMT -7
Popping this one back to the top for all the new folks who've arrived in the last year or so. Now I have the Brake Lite - need to do a new series and include it here!
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Post by impactblue on Mar 31, 2009 20:33:05 GMT -7
Benttop can you do some tests with the amp overdriven??
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