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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 20, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -7
With all the "boutique" equipment in the world today from $8k amps to $15-20k guitars and up, with an emphasis on the highest quality and second to none craftsmanship, I wonder why no one has decided to invest in a stateside quality American tube venture. Every person on this forum has an amp with a value higher than most of our first cars yet we entrust our tone to spotty inconsistent Chinese or Russian tubes with every failing quality. Is it the cost of starting up a facility to produce tubes that keeps the idea at bay? If we're willing to spend $30 more for a cable that boasts "oxygen free copper" and "24k gold connections" then why not a premium American made tube to fill the guts of our Premium American gear? Or does this exist and my post will find a new home on the forum bathroom wall for all to poke at? HAhahaha!!
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Post by detuned on Jan 20, 2015 10:59:11 GMT -7
Startup costs, my man.
I used to watch Dan Boul's 65 Amps webcast, & he was toying with doing just that for a while. He estimated that he'd need $10 million to get it started. Even charging a premium over "regular" tubes, that's quite a while till payback.
Things could change as the supply of decent NOS tubes starts to really dry up...
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Post by BritInvasion on Jan 20, 2015 11:21:30 GMT -7
Maybe a bunch of us could get together and go on "Shark Tank"... "Give us $10 Million for a 25% stake in our company..."
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Post by Stan on Jan 20, 2015 11:35:50 GMT -7
Brilliant Idea, surely needed 10 million hmmmm I'd like to read that business plan, sounds insanely high except perhaps if your having full automated robots. But then can't say hand made..............
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Jan 20, 2015 12:03:06 GMT -7
I ask myself this question ALL THE TIME.
Basic economic analysis shows that the market demand is high (lots of people with disposable cash buying high-end gear) and the supply is low ("quality" supply, that is--and NOS tubes are a finite supply). Doesn't even have to be "boutique" tubes, as you say.. just "good" ones. I refuse to believe that a modern, well-run factory could not produce tubes that meet or surpass the quality of tubes built 50 freakin' years ago.
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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 20, 2015 12:11:29 GMT -7
Maybe a bunch of us could get together and go on "Shark Tank"... "Give us $10 Million for a 25% stake in our company..." Which Shark do you think would bite?
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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 20, 2015 12:18:14 GMT -7
I ask myself this question ALL THE TIME. Basic economic analysis shows that the market demand is high (lots of people with disposable cash buying high-end gear) and the supply is low ("quality" supply, that is--and NOS tubes are a finite supply). Doesn't even have to be "boutique" tubes, as you say.. just "good" ones. I refuse to believe that a modern, well-run factory could not produce tubes that meet or surpass the quality of tubes built 50 freakin' years ago. "Boutique" was just used as an association with the gear we often use but like you said, more just a solid dependable American product. The rest of the industry has done this (for the most part). Just a fun question.
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Post by BritInvasion on Jan 20, 2015 12:54:34 GMT -7
Maybe a bunch of us could get together and go on "Shark Tank"... "Give us $10 Million for a 25% stake in our company..." Which Shark do you think would bite? Kevin O'Leary. After he beat us up and then would want $5.00 per tube sold until he got his money back , then $1.50 per tube "in perpetuity".
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Post by djcakadave on Jan 20, 2015 15:44:30 GMT -7
We could get all the glass we need from Joel's left over bottles at a reduced rate
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Post by Baconator on Jan 20, 2015 16:21:36 GMT -7
We could get all the glass we need from Joel's left over bottles at a reduced rate I don't think I've ever seen tubes made with brown glass . . .
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Post by djcakadave on Jan 20, 2015 16:29:25 GMT -7
We could get all the glass we need from Joel's left over bottles at a reduced rate I don't think I've ever seen tubes made with brown glass . . . Or green either......
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Post by djcakadave on Jan 20, 2015 16:32:28 GMT -7
We could get all the glass we need from Joel's left over bottles at a reduced rate I don't think I've ever seen tubes made with brown glass . . . Just think of the claim to be able to achieve the "Brown sound" with these tubes
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Post by nmz on Jan 20, 2015 17:40:59 GMT -7
I can see it now "dude I got a killer set of molson 6V6's!"
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Post by djcakadave on Jan 20, 2015 17:48:42 GMT -7
I can see it now "dude I got a killer set of molson 6V6's!" I can just see "Homer" saying ummmmmm tubes.........
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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 20, 2015 18:43:26 GMT -7
I can see it now "dude I got a killer set of molson 6V6's!" Dude, that's hilarious!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 19:06:07 GMT -7
It would be a niche market of a niche market of a niche market. I'm not gonna pay $400 for a pair of "boutique" 6L6s that I'm gonna have to replace in a year or two.
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Post by djcakadave on Jan 20, 2015 19:17:59 GMT -7
Going way out on a limb here but, I'd like to see Z build tubes! He does so well with amps, can't you just hear how well his tubes would sound?
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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 21, 2015 6:34:16 GMT -7
It would be a niche market of a niche market of a niche market. I'm not gonna pay $400 for a pair of "boutique" 6L6s that I'm gonna have to replace in a year or two. That would be hard to swallow for sure but with the number of NOS tubes becoming more rare some of us are already paying quite a bit for tubes. I wonder though, what would be the price point for something like this. And though it is technically a niche market technically it's not, guitar amps costly and cheap use them, high end stereos use them, even none guitar related recording equipment use tubes. All of which would benefit from a quality tube. It's like a pipe dream but a fun idea nonetheless.
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Post by detuned on Jan 21, 2015 9:12:31 GMT -7
I don't know where Dan got his math either, that's just what he said. I imagine he knows a bit more about manufacturing than I do, tho'.
I can see a hefty up front price, for sure. Factory space, all new tooling, probably have to completely re-manufacture some, if not most of those old machines... Never mind the R&D costs, materials, labor, transportation, legal costs, blah, blah, blah. Plus, other than us crazy guitarists, & home stereo freaks, how big do you think the market really is?
Questions...
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Post by zpilot on Jan 21, 2015 11:27:30 GMT -7
Don't forget the cost of dealing with government regulations. That's a major reason they are currently manufactured in other countries. I know a couple of business owners who have recently moved their manufacturing mainly for that reason.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Jan 21, 2015 12:18:59 GMT -7
Don't forget the cost of dealing with government regulations. That's a major reason they are currently manufactured in other countries. I know a couple of business owners who have recently moved their manufacturing mainly for that reason. That's a good thought, I'm sure that's a big part of it. Restricted and/or heavy metals, etc... Probably a huge cost barrier on the part of a wanna-be manufacturer. But still... I've gotta think this could be done... and that the first one who does it would make the big bucks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 15:25:44 GMT -7
Aside from points already made, I just don't think there's enough of a market for it. Take the population of all electric guitar players. Now remove those playing digital/modeling/solid state gear. Now remove those who don't really know/care about this sort of thing. My guess is that's not a huge group of people. Now, imagine that "boutique quality tube" lasts three times as long as the current production tubes. Or longer - Look at all the old Fenders with original tubes! That's one third (or maybe less) the tubes sold, because we're not burning through them like now.
My guess is that even if this were feasible, and someone was dumb enough to try it, we'd all have something new to b*tch about:
"Can you believe Tubular Tubes in CA has the audacity to ask $1,500 for a matched pair of 6v6s?!?"
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Post by strat59 on Jan 23, 2015 3:49:52 GMT -7
Don't forget the cost of dealing with government regulations. That's a major reason they are currently manufactured in other countries. I know a couple of business owners who have recently moved their manufacturing mainly for that reason. True. From the little bit of reading I've done on the subject the E.P.A. is a major stumbling block. Supposedly lots of nasty chems involved in tube manufacturing. But I also would love to see someone make quality tubes in the USA.
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Post by Papa Juan (lanier816) on Jan 23, 2015 17:10:40 GMT -7
Don't forget the cost of dealing with government regulations. That's a major reason they are currently manufactured in other countries. I know a couple of business owners who have recently moved their manufacturing mainly for that reason. True. From the little bit of reading I've done on the subject the E.P.A. is a major stumbling block. Supposedly lots of nasty chems involved in tube manufacturing. But I also would love to see someone make quality tubes in the USA. My trade and profession is Process Refrigeration and Natural gas Processing, we deal with the EPA all the time, new rules and regulations and so on. I often wonder what they're thinking when they make these laws. If you look at the larger picture, American is so far beyond the rest of the world with emissions regulation that we could quit today and still not be as bad as everyone else. Oh well, it was at least a fun topic to discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 18:26:17 GMT -7
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Post by wraparound (Steve) on Jan 27, 2015 12:19:03 GMT -7
Western Electric was manufacturing the 300b in their Huntsville, Alabama location. Last press release I found was in 2005, and the pair was over $1200.00!
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Post by rcrecelius on Jan 27, 2015 19:17:49 GMT -7
Myles had a little rant in his Facebook about some brand of cryogenic treated tubes...he basically said if you believe this mess, unfriend me now
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Jan 28, 2015 19:28:07 GMT -7
Tubes are used for more than just guitar amps. Radio stations require tubes for the wattages they push. I'm just saying the market is larger than we might think. I'm led to understand that Groove tubes started to manufacture overseas due to EPA regulations and their impact on cost. I think it was more due to the affect on their bottom line. I for one would be willing to pay a little more for quality American made tubes. Heck some folks already pay through the nose for NOS tubes which are the bottom of the bin at this point. Just thinking out loud.
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Post by BritInvasion on Jan 28, 2015 20:02:58 GMT -7
I recall Myles stating some time ago that EPA regulations had nothing to do with the demise of tube manufacturing in the US. In fact , there are several manufactures of tubes in the US , they just don't make what they consider low-end audio tubes. They focus on klystrons , ignitrons and others that cost thousands. Here's an interesting piece I spotted: www.pentalabs.com/maintenance.htmlTubes for industrial , medical and military use are still in demand and manufactured here. It's a shame they don't apply their expertise and manufacturing capabilities to the stuff we all use. www.cpii.com/division.cfm/9
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