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Post by ericatunc on Oct 22, 2014 11:23:09 GMT -7
My band plays rock and hard rock, 90's through today. Think Offspring, Foo Fighters, STP, Green Day, Bush, U2, Collective Soul, Velvet Revolver, Black Keys, Cage The Elephant, etc.
I've been having problems cutting through the mix, mainly when playing single note lines. One example is the little lead lick in Come Out and Play by The Offspring. It just doesn't cut through and I don't think I should really have to use a boost for a line like this in a song. Sometimes my leads don't either but I try to use a pedal for those.
Here's my gear and settings:
PRS SC245 w/Humbuckers (57/09s) (play mostly bridge pickup) Gibson ES-339 w/Fralin Humbuckers (play mostly bridge pickup)
Dr. Z Remedy (eq & master mods) w/ 2 1x12 Z convertible cabs (closed) both with Celestion Creambacks
Remedy Settings at band volume: - 40 watts - Master: 11:30-12:00 - Vol I: 3:00 - Vol II: 9:00 - Bass: 9:00 - Treble: 10:00 - Mid: 12:00
I've been alternating between turning EQ off for main rhythm for the more rocking songs and using my KoT. Using the Red side of the KoT for solos sounds a bit thin to me. I do have a Fat Boost 3 and Xotic EP Booster that I thought about using to get more gain when I need it instead of hte KoT.
Any suggestions?
Thanks, Eric
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 22, 2014 11:48:49 GMT -7
Use your guitar's volume control instead of pedals to come up. Every time I see someone stomping on anything to take a solo, they inevitably disappear from the mix. Just my opinion...
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Post by pcns on Oct 22, 2014 11:55:52 GMT -7
Use your guitar's volume control instead of pedals to come up. Every time I see someone stomping on anything to take a solo, they inevitably disappear from the mix. Just my opinion... I remember that from the Zfest we were at together Steve. People would step on the pedal and be gone Todd
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Post by ericatunc on Oct 22, 2014 12:01:54 GMT -7
Also, it's not just solos, it's also single line runs/licks where no boost or volume is used or needed.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 22, 2014 15:12:57 GMT -7
Also, it's not just solos, it's also single line runs/licks where no boost or volume is used or needed. Well if your band is anything like most, you're set up there on stage with a 40 watt amp, and the bass player is thumping through a 750 watt monster hooked to a couple thousand watts of subs, in which the bass drum also resides. You want a single-note run to stand out, you have to come up. I could be wrong - YMMV - but that's been my experience.
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Post by deltone on Oct 22, 2014 15:48:59 GMT -7
I don't know how many instruments or what types of instrumentation are in your band, but though I play in just a 4-piece band (guitar/guitar/bass/drums, or guitar/keys/bass/drums) we try to ensure that the guitar(s) and keys don't occupy the same space in the sonic spectrum, that there is tonal separation between them. That way each instrument can clearly be heard in the overall mix. I don't ever see anybody mention this concept in a live playing setting; the discussion always seems to be about volume. Also, it helps if two people aren't playing at the same point on the scale. I hope all that made sense. For example, if everyone has a big, fat tone and all are playing at the same position on the fretboard or keyboard then there won't be anything distinguishable about any of the instrumentation. Food for thought maybe?
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Post by deltone on Oct 22, 2014 16:01:18 GMT -7
In addition, overplaying by one or more of the musicians will also contribute to making it difficult to distinguish between parts. My opinion and experience is that those bands whose members listen to each other, don't overplay, keep it simple, take their shots when it's their turn then get back out, are the most-pleasing to listen to, and are the easiest to distinguish between the various instruments and their parts. It's also the most difficult way for a band to play as most try to play every beat of every song all out. It's not easy sitting back, and, sometimes, not playing at all at certain places in a song.
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Post by ericatunc on Oct 22, 2014 18:10:31 GMT -7
Thanks. I should of mentioned that we are guitar, guitar, drums and bass as well.
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Post by kc on Oct 22, 2014 18:15:58 GMT -7
Couple of random thoughts about this -
whose perception is it that you don't cut through the mix - yours or the folks out front listening?
closed back cabs are highly directional, if you're standing almost on top of them and you perceive you're not cutting through because you can't hear yourself very well, try opening up the back of at least one of the cabs.
a remedy at 40 watts with two 1x12 cabs and your volume settings is pretty loud, your band mates need to turn down their amps and not beat the drums as hard
as others have noted, alot of gain could be contributing to your perception of not cutting thru
good luck at resolving this issue.
kc
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 22, 2014 18:43:26 GMT -7
In addition, overplaying by one or more of the musicians will also contribute to making it difficult to distinguish between parts. My opinion and experience is that those bands whose members listen to each other, don't overplay, keep it simple, take their shots when it's their turn then get back out, are the most-pleasing to listen to, and are the easiest to distinguish between the various instruments and their parts. It's also the most difficult way for a band to play as most try to play every beat of every song all out. It's not easy sitting back, and, sometimes, not playing at all at certain places in a song. ^^^^^^This! And the previous post too!
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Post by iluvpunz on Oct 22, 2014 21:01:17 GMT -7
Don't know how long you've had your Remedy but I've had to replace my power tubes a couple times. It seems they start to fade around 150 hours. I play in a modern country classic rock band so I can't exactly adress the tune you referenced but it you have not had issues before and the volume and punch seems to be diminishing it might be the power tubes. The Remedy pushes them pretty hard.
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Post by ericatunc on Oct 23, 2014 7:13:03 GMT -7
Thanks for the advice so far.
I worked on my sound more last night and I think I have it dialed in better, but I won't know for sure until Sunday's practice.
Here's what I did:
1. Removed middle panel of a 1x12, the one on top. So the bottom 1x12 is closed, and the one sitting on top is open. I figured this would give me more bass and punchiness with the closed on the bottom. 2. Dialed back Vol I to 1:00 (from 3:00), Treble is around 10:30 (from 10:00). 3. Turned off diamond compressor (was only using a little) 4. Dialed back gain on both sides of KoT. I dialed back the gain and increased the volume. Gain on both sides is around 1:00 and volume is around 3:00, instead of vice versa.
The sound is really good with these settings. It seems to have more 'punch'. I might try a tube swap as well.
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Post by JeffG on Oct 23, 2014 7:42:00 GMT -7
In addition to turning up the guitar volume, one of the things I do to stand out a little for lead lines, licks, and solos is to turn up the tone knob. I've got a tele that's pretty bright when I'm on the bridge pup with the tone and volume maxed. I usually keep the volume between 5-8 and the tone between 4-7 and then kick it up if I need to for leads. That way I've got a little extra punch when I need it without stomping on a pedal. I'm sure this will be different with different guitars, pedals, speakers, etc. but it might be worth a shot. (Full disclosure: I also run the Rem with the knobs a little louder/hotter than I need so that I can have more control with my guitar's volume and tone.)
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Post by doctorice on Oct 23, 2014 8:05:01 GMT -7
^^^
I do a similar thing with my LP. Volume knobs usually set between 8 and 9 and tone at 5 or 6. I set my base amp volume and tone at those levels. My LP's volume taper is such that volume between 9 and 10 is noticeably higher than the 8-9 range. On some tunes I crank volume up to push the amp harder. On others, especially with the bridge pup, I just move the tone knob up. A good example would be the Black Crowes version of Hard to Handle. For the first solo, I'm on the bridge and just move the tone knob up. Really easy to pull it back when the solo ends.
Another thing I do with some pedals is set their volume level so that the volume jumps up when they're stomped on, but then I dial volume back on the guitar. To my ears, this can produce a more pleasing OD sound.
For songs in which I'm mostly playing chords with some lead licks thrown in between phrases, I try to make the lines stand out by increasing my pick attack.
Our band is guitar-bass-drums-harp-vocals, fwiw.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 23, 2014 8:54:21 GMT -7
Another thing you should try when live is pushing up your mid control. Middle cuts through like a knife and doesn't necessarily sound good when playing alone, but in a band context it is like a knife in butter.
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Post by deltone on Oct 23, 2014 12:01:16 GMT -7
^^^^^^ yup. These last 2 posts by doctorice and Steve are exactly what I was referring to when I said you need to create tonal separation. And in my posts, I almost included exactly what Steve said, that what you end up with may not be an ideal tone if just playing by yourself, but it does provide separation in the mix (i.e. cuts through the mix).
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Post by ericatunc on Oct 23, 2014 12:04:12 GMT -7
My mids are at noon currently. I will try increasing more during practice on Sunday.
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Post by mjharnish on Oct 27, 2014 10:48:15 GMT -7
Anytime I hear someone say "I'm not cutting through." I think mids - they are where the guitar lives & dies. The reason main why the TS808/9 is so beloved is because of the midrange hump which helps you cut through. It's the reason why "treble boosters" are so popular. You mention the KoT sounds "thin" to you which may be just the ticket - what often sounds thin to you, especially at home or in isolation, will cut through better in the full band context. As deltone has said, it's all about finding your frequency niche in the mix, not about being louder.
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Post by ME on Oct 27, 2014 16:49:36 GMT -7
Ouch, tried twice on the i-phone, it locked and all was lost... I agree with the thoughts about the importance of mids, the use of volume and tone controls and that a great tone at home is often a bad thing in a band. I have always loved mids, and I can usually hear myself. Started way back when I was learning and playing along with records. I have lately, in the last 10 years, learned to use my volume and tone controls on my guitars. A slightly harsh tone, controlled for rhythm playing can be turned up and you are heard! I use quite a few boost pedals. most to enhance the big clean, yet gritty sound, I usually employ in the band. (confession time - I don't use a Remedy, I believe it would be a bit fizzy for me. I have an Antidote, previously I owned a Route 66). I have a couple of Fuzz/distortion pedals as well. Octave and low-fi tones are there purpose on my board. I have trouble with many fuzz tones as they get lost in the mix in our band (blues based rock - with a bit of southern rock and soul, R&B and whatever else turns our heads. It gets filtered and turns into us playing something you may recognize, may not know the arrangement.) It can help if, in twin guitar bands, you play different instruments - Les Paul and Strat?? I often play less and less to allow an arrangement to breathe. A friend once told me the audience hears what they want, not necessarily what you play - they remember the song they have heard and pick-up the little things, but don't know all the intricacies of the song. I go with that! I have had amps that I loved when playing at home, but couldn't hear in the band. Mostly lots of distortion and compression, really ripping, singing tone. The only time I have been able to use those (thick) tones is when we are miked and have a sound man - never in most of my gigs. Another thing that may help to give perspective... put your amp on the other side of the room/stage. This allows your sound to come to you. The bass player thinks I'm too loud, but I can hardly hear myself. He is at the receiving end of my amp while I'm off centre from the speaker and missing most of my good tone! Enjoy the journey... good tone today may be a bad tone tomorrow. I never know which pedals I'll use to enhance my tones from night to night as they sound different depending how the rest of the band is set up. I vary my position in the mix to allow myself to be heard (sort of self EQ-ing). Ramble done, for now... ME
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