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Post by cashandkerouac on May 1, 2007 23:00:37 GMT -7
i am curious to know your opinions about NOS versus new production tubes. is NOS better across the board or are there new production tubes that rival the quality and life of NOS? thanks in advance for your feedback. cheers!
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Post by zdogma on May 2, 2007 5:36:19 GMT -7
Tough question. Time will tell I guess.
There are good and bad examples of each type.
It has been my experience that the NOS tubes last significantly longer than most new production tubes, especially with tube rectifiers and EF 86's in the Z amps. Right now I have a pair of RCA black plates from the 1950's in one of my amps (50 plus years old!), they have been in there for 5 years, played daily, and still sound great.
They don't always sound better, I must admit. Depending on the circuit design, the often higher current output from the NOS tubes may not be a good thing. I put a set of amperex 12AX7's in a friend's Fender DeVille a few months ago. THey were much quieter than the stock tubes, but they sounded dark and muddy, and he went back to the sovteks.
Z's seem to love NOS tubes.
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Post by billyguitar on May 2, 2007 6:22:34 GMT -7
Back in the '70s when I was still buying new production american tubes there was a lot of harmonic junk. By that I mean I had trouble finding preamp tubes that wouldn't feed back. GEs, Sylvanias, RCAs and some of the Radio Shacks were bad. Not all but on average the tubes being made now are, I feel, better. This was not the golden age of tube making by any means. I've had old amps still with Tung Sols and RCAs from the 50s and 60s where I would replace them with new Groove Tubes and there wasn't any improvement over the 50 year old tubes that came in the amp. I have a couple of concerns with NOS, cost and perhaps not being able to replace them when I need to. Also amps where the output tubes should be replaced after 300 hours, like The Maz amps, don't seem to be worth the money. Z designs around production tubes so I'm happy with that.
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Post by mudskipper on May 2, 2007 9:00:27 GMT -7
i love old production tubes in most amps. i hear the difference in sound on and off stage. but with that said, i don't dislike current production tubes, either. i actually like some of them quite a bit. for me, it largely depends on how tubes sound in any given amp/circuit. i tend to end up with a mish-mash of old and new production tubes in all of my amps.
i've been lucky enough not to experience frequent tube failures like, what seems to be, many on the 'net. i had the same standard Russian EL84 in my former #1 amp for a bit over 10 years until i sold the amp. so i can't say with any confidence based on my experience that new production tubes fail faster than the old production tubes or vice-versa. if someone keeps blowing tubes, i'd say s/he would want to look at something more than just replacement tubes.
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Post by nitehawk55 on May 2, 2007 19:28:01 GMT -7
I think for the most part there are good current power tubes such as the 6V6 , 6L6 and EL34's being made with EL84's to a lesser degree but still pretty solid tubes in some brands . I think most current pre-amp tubes are of decent quality as well . I do know the NOS rectifier tubes are much better than anything currently produced . I have not had much to do with EF86's yet but most seem to agree NOS are better as well . Probably finding a reliable source for NOS is the hard part as well as price . Some deals on ebay but others get a bit crazy with some of the high end audio guys with deep pockets bidding stupid high on some stuff
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Post by mikekca on May 4, 2007 7:59:39 GMT -7
Tonally, there's no consensus on ANYTHING.
Regarding overall quality, which includes longevity.: An American made 12AX7 was about $5 in 1965. Using inflation alone (there are multiple other factors that would make today's price higher), the same tube would be about $50 today. How can the quality of $10 tubes made today possibly be close to a 1965 $5 tube? It's simply not possible.
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Post by nitehawk55 on May 6, 2007 20:20:14 GMT -7
Tonally, there's no consensus on ANYTHING. Regarding overall quality, which includes longevity.: An American made 12AX7 was about $5 in 1965. Using inflation alone (there are multiple other factors that would make today's price higher), the same tube would be about $50 today. How can the quality of $10 tubes made today possibly be close to a 1965 $5 tube? It's simply not possible. Sorry Mike , I'm not quite following that . Sure inflation I understand but these tubes are being made in other countries now . Thank the Chinese and Russians for making a cheaper tube . Are they as good ? , yes , no, maybe but time will tell .
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Post by mikekca on May 8, 2007 17:05:48 GMT -7
True, I guess when you figure in the 20 cent per hour 12 year old slave labor (do we REALLY want to deal with people who do this?) used in China, you could argue that costs would be lower. Add in the low value of the $US, import fees, middlemen, shipping, etc, and you may be close to the $US value.
Bottom line is this (and most people with extensive tube experience know this): New tubes last, on average, 1/5th as long as comparable NOS tubes...and I'm being very generous to the new production tubes when I say this.
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Post by nitehawk55 on May 8, 2007 18:20:24 GMT -7
Well I certainly don't condone slave labor but we really are trying to compare apples to oranges here are we not ? I fully agree that new tubes are probably not made to the quality/longevity of most NOS but as long as decent sounding new production tubes are available for a fraction of cost that NOS are then that will be what the masses will buy and use . If a North Am company were to start producing good sounding quality tubes at a reasonable cost , even if it was twice the cost of current production tubes I would rather buy those but I know that will probably never happen . Some NOS are still available in enough quantity that prices have not soared out of reach of the average guy, but I am seeing some prices that are getting totally out of control by audio geeks with very deep pockets who are buying up just about everything offered .
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Post by jwr on May 8, 2007 18:53:42 GMT -7
I think in order to argue different point's of view you have to be very specific about what tube your talking about and what amp it will be used in. According to Dr.Z, a Mullard EL-84 will have a very long and happy life in a Carmen Ghia. I don't know if that would be the case in a Maz Sr or Jr. So one could argue for JJ and one could argue for Mullard and both have legitimate points. I really liked the Sovtek 5751 that came in my Z-28 when I bought it(new), later on down the road I tried some NOS PI's in there, both 5751's and didn't like them as much as the Sovtek. Go figure. I've tried NOS tubes in V1 of my Bogner Shiva and went back to a plain old 12AX7C, but I love a National 5751 in front of the Maz Sr. Depends on the amp and most importantly the players ears. NOS preamp tubes generally last longer, but they can go South just like any other tube. It's all a gamble no matter how you look at it. And one thing is for certain, we will run out of NOS tubes sooner or later.
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Post by mikekca on May 10, 2007 20:20:41 GMT -7
And one thing is for certain, we will run out of NOS tubes sooner or later. No debate there. And at the rate they're selling, it won't be long.
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Post by skydog958 on May 13, 2007 19:31:50 GMT -7
If they do sell-out, then what would you do for a job, Mike?
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Post by billyguitar on May 14, 2007 11:29:36 GMT -7
He'd have to consider an exciting career in the food service industry!
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Post by jwr on May 14, 2007 20:01:52 GMT -7
He'll retire with all of our $$. Bunch of fools chasing the dragon.
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Post by mikekca on May 14, 2007 20:23:45 GMT -7
If they do sell-out, then what would you do for a job, Mike? Probably go back to repairing and modding amps. That's how I got into the tube thing. It's a lot more fun actually, but for right now the tube thing is too compelling.
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Post by mikekca on May 14, 2007 20:25:14 GMT -7
He'd have to consider an exciting career in the food service industry! Actually, I was thinking more of gutter cleaning or leaf blowing:) Seriously though, if it came to a choice between going back to corporate work or ANYTHING else, I'd sooner open up a rib joint. I've got a KILLER recipe!
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Post by mikekca on May 14, 2007 20:26:31 GMT -7
He'll retire with all of our $$. Bunch of fools chasing the dragon. Sounds like a plan, but you probably haven't checked health insurance premiums lately
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Post by BW on May 15, 2007 6:39:53 GMT -7
He'd have to consider an exciting career in the food service industry! Majored in the Lib'ral arts, now I'm sellin' Chicken Parts...ye'ownt FRAHS widdat? --The Clam Daddies, Denver Well, we'll just have to convince Doc to clone a Peavey Bandit an' git on down th' road.
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Post by dgabbear on Aug 6, 2007 16:57:05 GMT -7
Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever compared the tube filaments of yesterday to todays? Are the tube filaments a little more stout/thicker/larger in older tubes than today's production tubes. The other guitarist in my group recently replaced all the tubes in his Silverface Twin. Some of those tubes were pretty ancient and no longer in production. He made a comment that the filaments in the OLDER preamp tubes of this amp looked a little larger than the replacements (new production Rubys). This made me think. Does more hot surface area inside the tube help translate to better tone. I know todays production is all about "MORE FOR LESS" and tend to skimp on materials. Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this.
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Post by edoetsch on Aug 8, 2007 17:23:24 GMT -7
.... Z designs around production tubes so I'm happy with that. if we've all purchased dr z amps because they are some of the best, I cannot imagine tubes making more than a minimal improvement.
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Post by iggs on Aug 9, 2007 6:53:57 GMT -7
.... Z designs around production tubes so I'm happy with that. if we've all purchased dr z amps because they are some of the best, I cannot imagine tubes making more than a minimal improvement. I'll have to strongly disagree ... ;D I'm not a NOS tubes evangelist by any means but after I got some NOS rectifiers from Mike at KCA for my Route 66 ... let's just say that "I've seen the light"! The difference in sound and response of the amp was night and day, and I thought the amp sounded good before the change!!! I also sprung out for some NOS EF86 (Dario and a GEC) and a NOS 12AX7 to use as PI ... definitely a huge improvement as well. Now if I could just afford a pair of those tasty GEC KT66 ...
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Post by dixiechicken on Aug 9, 2007 7:55:24 GMT -7
I really couldn't afford them but I sprung for them anyway. A pair of matched GEC:s CV1076==KT66 brown base clear glass 1975/1971. I figured I'd try a couple of those once at least. Bought them from; www.tubeworld.com/Cheers: Dixiechicken
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