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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 15, 2014 17:41:01 GMT -7
Hi all,
First time posting here. Recently bought a Stang Ray (2nd Dr. Z - owned a KT45 a few years ago) and I have really been enjoying it. I was going for the Vox-y voicing but with a bit more headroom and versatility, and the Ray is really nailing the sound I want.
The issue I am having is that it seems excessively bright with most guitars. I am mainly playing a tele with a p90 in the neck and sometimes a strat. I find that to keep it from sounding overly bright, I have to keep the cut knob below the 1.5 - 2 range. My normal settings are: Cut - 1.5, Tone - 5, Volume - 4. It does help reduce the perceived brightness because there's a little break-up and the tone control interacts with the cut and reduces the ice-pick effect.
I actually love the way the amp sounds with everything around noon, but I play with a band and it doesn't sit well in a mix with those settings (a little too aggressive/bright).
What I'm wondering is if anyone has felt this way and tried any speaker combinations to try to dial back the treble. I'm currently playing through a 2x12 with 1 celestion blue and 1 celestion G12H30. I'm a big fan of the el84/blue sound a la AC30s, has anyone tried the Ray with any of the higher wattage Weber blues?
Thanks!
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2014 19:38:28 GMT -7
Welcome to the Forum. Lots of nice folks here.
The 'ray is known as an awfully bright amp. It's also know as a bit of a 'scooped' tone. And so is that G12H30. That speaker is known for being very bright. The blue is a great match, but I question that H in there. A scooped sounding amp with a scooped sounding speaker...I don't know about that.
Actually, yes I do know about that. I've hooked a stangray up to a G12H30....thought it was terrible. The absence of mids makes the speaker sound bright. It's offset by the blue, but still, another speaker in there could help take the edge off.
The 'ray gets along with mid oriented speakers. That's why it fits so well with blues/golds. I also think it fits well with greenbacks and their clones. Greenbacks also breakup early (like blues) and attenuate the high end when pushed hard.
I think Drew here in the forum uses a Weber with his. (don't remember which model)
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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 15, 2014 20:52:23 GMT -7
Hi John,
Thanks for the feedback. As a result of having few other combo amps and projects, I do have another blue, and a pair of greenbacks. I have an AC30TBX that I used to run with the 2 blues, but I switched out one for the G12H30 (very broken in) and liked the sound much more. I didn't try both blues with the Ray because I assumed that I would prefer the same configuration with a fairly similar amp to the AC30. I will give it a try with 2 blues. There is a kind of firmness on the low end that having the G12H30 gives me that I think I may miss, but I don't see it sounding bad by any stretch of the imagination.
While I'm at it I may as well see what a greenback/blue combo sounds like. I would guess someone has tried that before. There could be a little flub-iness in the bass based on my experience with both speakers, but certainly worth a shot since I have both laying around.
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2014 5:51:20 GMT -7
Two greenbacks would be great too. They share a lot in common with blues. Lush mids, early breakup, light on bass.
And if you're concerned about loss of bass when replacing the H....move the tone knob on the amp. (That will help compensate.)
I use a 1x12 Creamback M with mine. But if I had a 2x12, it would be two greenbacks.
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Post by drew on Apr 16, 2014 13:52:04 GMT -7
Welcome to the Ray club. Congrats on picking up a great amp. John nailed it! I like using the Ray with a Weber Blue Dog 50w Alnico 1x12 for two reasons. 1) It's a darker speaker and tames the ray's bright tendencies and 2) it's a very inefficient speaker so I can run the volume between noon and 2:00 and it's not too loud but still do run an airbrake on 1 or 2 clicks in for gigs. I run the cut a 8:30 to 9:00 depending on what guitar and speakers I'm using. I run the tone at 9:30 - 10:00 with that speaker.
Unlike most I'm not a fan of using 2 blues, as you commented you loose some of that wonderful ray 'thud' factor. A lot of folks say the blue and gold together tighten up the bottom end.
I agree with John and did not like, at all, the ray using a G12H30 as the only speaker. I like the ray thru a single G12-65 for rock and roll punch and breakup. It's an inefficient speaker and smooth on the high end. I suspect two greenbacks would be similar?
The ray is a beast using a Z-Best cab which is loaded with a G12H30 and V30. Something about that pairing in the tuned port Z-Best rocks, real hard. It's loud and proud. I run the cut around 8:30 and tone at 9:30. I also ran my Z-best with a Greenback and G12-65, that's a great sound and not as loud as the stock Z-Best.
If you listen to Brad Paisley recordings with the Stangray, bright is not how I would describe his tone. I'm not sure if he backs off his guitar tone control or what but he gets an incredible tone using the ray.
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Post by 6strang (aka Paul) on Apr 17, 2014 5:24:05 GMT -7
Agree with all the conversation above. I do like the Ray with a V30 and a G12H30 in a 212 cabinet. I have had success like Drew with the G1265 as well. I need to try a cream back - as my ear gravitates toward the Marshall type sounds the Ray gives up with the right OD pedal and power tube push. Welcome to the club.
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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 17, 2014 7:48:50 GMT -7
Thanks for all the replies.
Drew, you mentioned that the Weber blue is fairly dark and inefficient. I don't think Weber publishes their efficiency ratings, could you give a comparison on how it compares to a Celestion blue in that respect? I was under the impression that Celestion blues were pretty efficient.
If the Webers are a little less efficient and a little darker, than might be what I'm looking for if they retain most of the other "blue-like" qualities.. Of course I still need to try out some of the speaker combinations that I can test without any additional $$, but the amp is at the rehearsal space so I won't be able to until the weekend.
Paul, what style of OD do you like with your amp? Tube screamer family? I have a VFE Blues King (based on the old Marshall BluesBreaker pedal) that sounds fantastic with it. Very transparent and interacts with the amp in a really nice way. Still haven't figured out exactly how to get my tube screamer-style ODs to work the way I want with it.
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Post by z4me on Apr 17, 2014 10:34:29 GMT -7
I was under the impression that Celestion blues were pretty efficient. what style of OD do you like with your amp? Tube screamer family? The Celestion blue and gold are very efficient speakers at 100db. Though I play my Ray pretty low volume, I still have a gold and a celestion G12H-75 creamback in a z open back 2x12 cab. I selected the H creamback as it is also 100db sensitivity so that the output of both speakers was equal. A good combo with sweetness of the gold with some thump of the creamback. Regarding overdrives, I really like the xotic BB Preamp with the Ray. This combo flat out rocks and imo gets some of those Marshall tones that were mentioned. I have a fairly recently acquired xotic ac booster that I am still determining how well it is working with the Ray and had a wampler paisley drive that was fine with the Ray, but never really like the P drive all that much thus sold it.
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Post by drew on Apr 17, 2014 15:02:05 GMT -7
Drew, you mentioned that the Weber blue is fairly dark and inefficient. I don't think Weber publishes their efficiency ratings, could you give a comparison on how it compares to a Celestion blue in that respect? I was under the impression that Celestion blues were pretty efficient. [drew]Sorry I don't have a weber blue dog sensitivity ratings or any of their speakers that I know of. I can say that the higher the wattage rating on the blue dog the less efficient. I estimate the Weber Blue Dog 50W Alnico is about the same as a G12-65 approx 97 db. If the Webers are a little less efficient and a little darker, than might be what I'm looking for if they retain most of the other "blue-like" qualities.. Of course I still need to try out some of the speaker combinations that I can test without any additional $$, but the amp is at the rehearsal space so I won't be able to until the weekend. [drew]it's so hard to say what speaker will work, depending a lot on personal preferences. The 50w BD speakers are darker than the 15 watt version so I don't think it sounds like a celestion blue. I had a well broken blue in an old AC15-TBX and loved tone and breakup in that amp and think that's what folks like about the celestion blue, but it didn't have enough thud factor and it moved on. I don't think that's how the 50 Weber BD sounds. Odd as it might sound the ray thru my well broken in 50W Alnico BD speaker in an oversized semi open back cab it reminded me of my super-reverb but with better breakup and bottom end. Sounds crazy eh? The ray is a chameleon with different speakers it sounds different. I really like the xotic BB, Box of Rock and TIM dirt pedals with the ray. I don't have a much a selection but liked them. I also run a Line 6 HD500 pedal and like the tube screamer and Rat emulations with the ray. I guess I like the Ray! :-)
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Apr 18, 2014 0:58:25 GMT -7
Not a place I usually post, but I have struggled with an upper bright spike in my Remedy.
Aynsley Lister commented that in his opinion all Z amps are on the bright side and so are Celestions.
He recommended an Eminence Governor. JOB DONE!
Much warmer than any C speaker straight out of the box. Worth a try?
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Post by John on Apr 18, 2014 5:55:48 GMT -7
Not a place I usually post, but I have struggled with an upper bright spike in my Remedy. Aynsley Lister commented that in his opinion all Z amps are on the bright side and so are Celestions. He recommended an Eminence Governor. JOB DONE! Much warmer than any C speaker straight out of the box. Worth a try? Isn't the Governor Eminence's take on the V30? And the V30 isn't something I'd pair up with a stangray. (but it STILL would be better than an H)
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Post by telejas on Apr 18, 2014 8:15:07 GMT -7
Hi all, First time posting here. Recently bought a Stang Ray (2nd Dr. Z - owned a KT45 a few years ago) and I have really been enjoying it. I was going for the Vox-y voicing but with a bit more headroom and versatility, and the Ray is really nailing the sound I want. The issue I am having is that it seems excessively bright with most guitars. I am mainly playing a tele with a p90 in the neck and sometimes a strat. I find that to keep it from sounding overly bright, I have to keep the cut knob below the 1.5 - 2 range. My normal settings are: Cut - 1.5, Tone - 5, Volume - 4. It does help reduce the perceived brightness because there's a little break-up and the tone control interacts with the cut and reduces the ice-pick effect. I actually love the way the amp sounds with everything around noon, but I play with a band and it doesn't sit well in a mix with those settings (a little too aggressive/bright). What I'm wondering is if anyone has felt this way and tried any speaker combinations to try to dial back the treble. I'm currently playing through a 2x12 with 1 celestion blue and 1 celestion G12H30. I'm a big fan of the el84/blue sound a la AC30s, has anyone tried the Ray with any of the higher wattage Weber blues? Thanks! I'm kind of the opposite.... I never played the Ray with actual Celestion Blues. My first Ray, I played with a pair of 50w Weber speakers: 1 Alnico Blue Dog speaker and 1 Alnico Silver Bell. While the nature of the amp is to be bright, it wasn't too spikey on the top end. I did play it through an Emenince Red Fang once and thought that was much darker than the Webers. With my 2nd Ray, I played through a 30wt Weber Alnico Blue dog 1x12 cab and occasionally through my Hayseed combo cab that had a pair of 30wt Weber Alnico Blue Dogs in it. I never thought it was overly bright, but then again I like bright amps. The darkest speaker, but still had the same type of sound, was an Emenince Red Fang.
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Post by bluzman on Apr 18, 2014 8:15:39 GMT -7
Tone knob on the guitar tames it for me.
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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 18, 2014 12:40:23 GMT -7
I generally keep the tone knob around 75% up when playing the stangray. Any lower does roll treble off, but it starts to "feel" wrong because the amp and guitar respond differently than if the treble is reduced somewhere else in the chain. Just looking for a way to get a little more useable range from the amp.
At the end of the day, keeping the cut knob turned almost all the way down isn't a big problem, but limits the flexibility for me, so if there is a more suitable potential speaker combination, it seems like that might be a good way to address it. Sounds like there a few possibilities to keep the tone in the same ballpark with some slightly darker and/or less efficient speakers to smooth out the top a little bit.
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Post by John on Apr 18, 2014 14:44:34 GMT -7
I forgot to add:
When playing rhythm....I keep the guitar tone around 75%...then when it's time for a solo....I crank it all the way to bright...along with full volume on the guitar volume knob.
For decades, I never touched the guitar tone....but now with the Ghia and 'ray...I am.
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Post by eliot1025 on Apr 21, 2014 4:52:20 GMT -7
You've received some good advice here. I agree with replacing the G12H30 - it was the culprit in 2 of the 3 Z amps I've owned. A good replacement that hasn't been mentioned yet is a Tone Tubby. Either the 12" ceramic or the 12" alnico. These speakers are famous for their softer, slightly rounded highs. The alnico will have a little sweeter more detailed high end and a bit less bass punch compared to the ceramic which will have a bit more bass punch and less high-end detail. The ceramic has a very robust low end and has been very helpful to me with the Z28. They're pricey but truly excellent - durable and beautiful. And unique - there's nothing else like them.
Re: Weber speakers (another good choice - I've used a bunch of them) consult with Weber about which wattage to choose before buying. They often have several wattage options for the same model and the wattage on those speakers will affect the frequency response and of course the breakup point.
There are a bunch of possible solutions that don't involve speaker replacement. I guess that's for a different thread.
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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 29, 2014 7:59:27 GMT -7
Finally got the amp home to do some A/B testing with different speaker combos: Blue + greenback: something about this didn't mesh well for me. Some unpleasant "honky-ness" in the mids. Plenty of bass on tap with the tone control on the 'ray, but definitely not as "tight" as the G12H. Did improve the overly bright tone though. Blue + G12H30: my original configuration. Like the tightness on the low end and the overall tone, but piercingly bright on most settings. Blue + blue: my favorite configuration so far. In between the 2 above combinations in terms of brightness, a little loose in the bass. Mids are very good, but overall sound is slightly more compressed than I would prefer, and still a little bright. Not sure if I can get away with spending any more $ on this, but the Weber alnicos are tempting... I guess I could always sell one of the Celestion blues to finance the purchase. -------------------------- eliot1025 - what kind of solutions would you suggest instead of speaker replacement?
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Post by John on Apr 30, 2014 5:28:18 GMT -7
Finally got the amp home to do some A/B testing with different speaker combos: Blue + greenback: something about this didn't mesh well for me. Some unpleasant "honky-ness" in the mids. Plenty of bass on tap with the tone control on the 'ray, but definitely not as "tight" as the G12H. Did improve the overly bright tone though. Blue + G12H30: my original configuration. Like the tightness on the low end and the overall tone, but piercingly bright on most settings. Blue + blue: my favorite configuration so far. In between the 2 above combinations in terms of brightness, a little loose in the bass. Mids are very good, but overall sound is slightly more compressed than I would prefer, and still a little bright. Not sure if I can get away with spending any more $ on this, but the Weber alnicos are tempting... I guess I could always sell one of the Celestion blues to finance the purchase. -------------------------- eliot1025 - what kind of solutions would you suggest instead of speaker replacement? It's been my experience that when playing alone at home, the H can be a fun speaker....but when playing with a band, I normally find the H to be lacking. When playing with a band...mids are where it's at. It's why people have loved the Celestion Blue for 50 years....mids! I'm surprised the Blue/Greenback didn't sound good. The Blue would be the dominate tone as it's a bit louder than a greenback.
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Post by apwwest59 on Apr 30, 2014 17:11:10 GMT -7
I wouldn't say the Blue/Greenback sounded bad... It still sounded really nice, just relatively speaking the 'least good' sounding. The greenback just didn't seem to add anything to the sound that I thought the blue didn't already do better (i.e. smooth mids). I will be using the blue/blue cab this weekend with a band, so I'm hoping it sounds even better for me in that setting. It's also a little difficult to gauge the sound in my house because the bass in the 'ray seems to have identified every resonant frequency of all the objects in my house, including the walls...
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Post by Hohn on Jun 13, 2014 11:51:10 GMT -7
Tone knob on the guitar tames it for me. We have a winner!! Isn't that why it's there? The tone knob, I mean. If you don't use the guitar knobs, then you do have options. Personally, I love the ray+C-Blues tone, as it's just a tone nothing else has. BUT, it is a bright tone, and Blues really need some hours on them to really mature and take some of the sting out. I used to think the amp was too bright, but then I realized just how much easier it is to take the highs out of a bright amp than it is to add clarity to a muddy, dark amp. What I would recommend you consider is switching out that G12H30 as John recommended. A speaker that is VERY warm and would sound fantastic is the Warehouse Guitar Speakers smooth cone 12" It's similar to the smooth cones of the OLD Fender amps (like 1949-1950 amps you'd use with a Broadcaster). These speakers have very "brown" sound to them with rolled off highs but still good clarity in the upper mids. Then you just choose which speaker to mic up. In a dark room, mic the Blue. If it's too intense, mic the WGS and trade that for a veyr warm speaker. Most of all, get some hours on those speakers. Not sure why, but Blues in particular are very sensitive to break in. They sound awful out the box, a little better after 50-100- hours or so, but it really takes several hundred hours for them to really sound great. The best Blues are those that have been in an amp that has been used over and over and over. Lots of recording studios are sitting on old Voxes with blues with THOUSANDS of hours on them and they are a big part of the secret sauce of some studio tricks.
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Post by Hohn on Jun 13, 2014 11:53:24 GMT -7
Forgot to add:
Stang Ray is very sensitive to the EF86 used in V1. I was able to remove all the super bright top end in my amp by swapping in a Groove Tubes EF86. It also destroyed all the magic of the Stang tone. Back in went a Dario miniwatt.
Far better to just roll off the tone a little and keep that magic alive.
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Post by ME on Jun 14, 2014 9:08:31 GMT -7
I found the Brake Lite at one click calmed the brightness I found in my Route 66 and it sat in the mix better. Was using V 30's in 1X12 cabs. Might not be not what you are looking for...
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Post by Don on Aug 2, 2014 4:26:23 GMT -7
I think the 'Ray and Celestion Golds were made for each other. Cut and guitar tone to suit your taste.
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 2, 2014 8:08:29 GMT -7
Tone knob on the guitar tames it for me. We have a winner!! Isn't that why it's there? The tone knob, I mean. If you don't use the guitar knobs, then you do have options. Personally, I love the ray+C-Blues tone, as it's just a tone nothing else has. BUT, it is a bright tone, and Blues really need some hours on them to really mature and take some of the sting out. I used to think the amp was too bright, but then I realized just how much easier it is to take the highs out of a bright amp than it is to add clarity to a muddy, dark amp. What I would recommend you consider is switching out that G12H30 as John recommended. A speaker that is VERY warm and would sound fantastic is the Warehouse Guitar Speakers smooth cone 12" It's similar to the smooth cones of the OLD Fender amps (like 1949-1950 amps you'd use with a Broadcaster). These speakers have very "brown" sound to them with rolled off highs but still good clarity in the upper mids. Then you just choose which speaker to mic up. In a dark room, mic the Blue. If it's too intense, mic the WGS and trade that for a veyr warm speaker. Most of all, get some hours on those speakers. Not sure why, but Blues in particular are very sensitive to break in. They sound awful out the box, a little better after 50-100- hours or so, but it really takes several hundred hours for them to really sound great. The best Blues are those that have been in an amp that has been used over and over and over. Lots of recording studios are sitting on old Voxes with blues with THOUSANDS of hours on them and they are a big part of the secret sauce of some studio tricks. +1000. Most people consider the blues to be obnoxiously bright, and straight out of the box they are. I am guilty of pre-judging the blues before break-in and just thought they weren't for me. That was until I purchased my ghia combo with a blue. The combo had been used on a pro tour for 10 years before I snagged it. When I plugged into it for the first time it blew my mind because of my previous misconceptions of the blue. This blue is well broken in and it sounds great IMO. The mids are great, lows aren't overpowering but they are there, and the highs appear to be slightly rolled off yet it maintains a good and articulate presence. It's warm and full yet still has enough brightness to not get muddy. But like others have suggested, just rolling the guitar tone off a hair can tame the ice pick brightness. Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Proboards
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Post by thetallesttexan on Sept 22, 2014 7:14:42 GMT -7
I'm running a Scumback Scumnico (like a vox silver) and a Scumback M75 (like a greenback) in a Z Best Cab. It's awesome. I tend to mic the scumnico, but both sound great. Also these speakers are a lot less efficient than Celestions so it helps tame the volume a little. Which is nice because I'm running it in stereo with a Wreck (!).
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Matteo
New Member
Guitar Player | Freelance Musician | Tone Obsessed | Gear Enthusiast
Posts: 26
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Post by Matteo on Oct 1, 2014 16:10:39 GMT -7
I put a Weber Blue Dog 50w in a Dr.Z 1x12 and it sounds fabulous. Love the way it reacts with the highs. Still needs some time to break in.
Before getting the Ray I've always been told that it's a Telly amp - or at least an amp for single coils. Btw I love the way it sounds with my Les Paul, which has a pair of custom made PAF replicas that have a very warm and dark tone. It pairs up better than I thought with the top end of the Stang.
Yet the strat is even more fun to play, it just shines through it!
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Post by drew on Oct 1, 2014 22:18:48 GMT -7
I put a Weber Blue Dog 50w in a Dr.Z 1x12 and it sounds fabulous. Love the way it reacts with the highs. Still needs some time to break in. Before getting the Ray I've always been told that it's a Telly amp - or at least an amp for single coils. Btw I love the way it sounds with my Les Paul, which has a pair of custom made PAF replicas that have a very warm and dark tone. It pairs up better than I thought with the top end of the Stang. Yet the strat is even more fun to play, it just shines through it! Great to hear the Bluedog is working out. I also think the Ray sounds great with humbuckers guitars, at least PAF style humbuckers. I don't have any hot humbucker guitars.
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Post by Hohn on Nov 12, 2014 14:49:08 GMT -7
I have a WGS ET65 on the way for my 1x12. I think it will work well for Stang.
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Post by blueandgold on Nov 12, 2014 20:03:55 GMT -7
Just recently placed an order for a Stang Ray head (blonde). I played a Ray head (black) through a 2x12 loaded with two Celestion G12M Greenbacks. The Ray sounded friggin' fantastic. I have a Carr 2x12 cab at home loaded with an Eminence EJ125 (50 watt alnico) and a Carr Elsinore (60 watt ceramic). I'm hoping that combo will go well with the Ray.
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