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Post by JoeMo' on Feb 8, 2014 11:20:13 GMT -7
Just some thoughts here..
In the past, I have talked about how much I can't stand attenuators. After really experimenting with a brake lite a few times I have come up with a conclusion. I really think it's kind of like a stomp box pedal, meaning, I can throw my pedal board in from of a different amp and keep my same settings but it will sound a little different. I kind of get the same thing with an attenuator. It might sound obvious, but I was under the impression that it just reduced volume. It does, but to me it kills some amps and works great with others. To my ears, it's usually the EL-84 based amps that it kind of squashes. I think it works great with amps like the Z28, antidote and remedy.. But for some reason the maz, Zwreck and ghia get squashed. (Not that those amps aren't great) I have tried all these amps with the recommended start in click 4 and go down from there. Idk, just a couple of thoughts. Anybody else hearing the same thing?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 8, 2014 23:48:50 GMT -7
Boy, not me. I once recorded at every setting and posted the recordings. Not one person could choose the fully attenuated from the unattenuated versions. And those were done with the RXES, which is 4 EL84's.
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Post by wubberdubber on Feb 9, 2014 10:22:22 GMT -7
jmoore, I think there may be something to what you say, as far as the attenuator working better with certain amps. I've only tried my brake lite with the three Z's I own, which are a Remedy, Galaxie, and MAZ 18. Seems to work best with the Galaxie. Not bad with the Remedy, but since that has a half-power switch, don't really need it. I don't care for it with the MAZ...it does seem to affect the "bloom" of the power tubes. To me, the whole point of an attenuator is to drive the power section harder at reduced volume, so when you say "squashed", not sure if you're meaning tone, or the natural compression that happens from driving a tube harder.
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Post by Maddog on Feb 10, 2014 5:48:43 GMT -7
That's interesting, Joey. All the Z-amps I've used an attenuator on are all el84 amps.... and, I don't care much for the results. I know there are people who can really make 'em sound wonderful (Benttop), but I just can't seem to find that setting that doesn't suck the life outta my amps.... I gave up...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 9:21:52 GMT -7
I never really like my Sangray with the Brake Lite but it sounds great with my EZG 50
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Post by 1juicy1 on Feb 13, 2014 9:02:00 GMT -7
I tend to agree, I just could not stand the squashed tone of an attenuator with my Maz. I tried and tried but just couldn't. I think it sounded OK if I pushed the amp up to super loud stage/concert volume but that kinda defeats the purpose. I experimented with my Brakelite on my buddy's 2 Fender Deluxe Reverbs and it actually sounded great. Didn't squash or dull too much, let his DR's get up into the crunch zone. In fact I sold it to him (he's happy) and I've never looked back. IMHO, the Doc has built the perfect Master Volume amp in the Maz, so I'll never go back to an attenuator, I'm happy with his functional MV.
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Post by muZician on Feb 13, 2014 23:11:24 GMT -7
my zwreck sounds great with the airbrake. but of course no comparison with the amp cranked without attenuator. but how can you compare? the amp is so loud that a comparison is truly impossible
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Post by carrjimi on Mar 7, 2015 9:34:44 GMT -7
Interesting stuff...
I love the air brake with my Jaz and Z28. I find with my el84 amps with Alnico speaker, it kills the tone because you don't get the speaker moving as much. It's not something anyone listening might hear but a feel thing when you are playing. YMMV.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 7, 2015 16:37:58 GMT -7
I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Your brain is the biggest impediment to hearing what you like when you use an attenuator. That's because you're doing it wrong. If you start with the attenuator in the thru position, get your sound, then turn down with the attenuator, your brain tells you something is missing. If you start with the attenuator at full attenuation (and by start I mean before exposing your ears to ANY loud music at all) and set up your sound, then turn the attenuator UP to get to your volume, you will have an entirely different experience. What I have never been able to understand is why so many guys are so resistant to trying it.
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Post by carrjimi on Mar 7, 2015 17:56:34 GMT -7
I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Your brain is the biggest impediment to hearing what you like when you use an attenuator. That's because you're doing it wrong. If you start with the attenuator in the thru position, get your sound, then turn down with the attenuator, your brain tells you something is missing. If you start with the attenuator at full attenuation (and by start I mean before exposing your ears to ANY loud music at all) and set up your sound, then turn the attenuator UP to get to your volume, you will have an entirely different experience. What I have never been able to understand is why so many guys are so resistant to trying it. Never tried it like that. Going to tonight
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Post by Stephen on Mar 7, 2015 21:19:28 GMT -7
I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Your brain is the biggest impediment to hearing what you like when you use an attenuator. That's because you're doing it wrong. If you start with the attenuator in the thru position, get your sound, then turn down with the attenuator, your brain tells you something is missing. If you start with the attenuator at full attenuation (and by start I mean before exposing your ears to ANY loud music at all) and set up your sound, then turn the attenuator UP to get to your volume, you will have an entirely different experience. What I have never been able to understand is why so many guys are so resistant to trying it. I am going to try this too.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 8, 2015 5:17:57 GMT -7
I don't know what kind of stages you guys get a chance to play on but I've been touring non stop with my MAZ 18 for three weeks now. We're not a cover or wedding band so we have to get our own audience there which has been between 25 and 200 people for the last dozen or so shows.
If our sound guy tells me to turn down my amp, I have two options: (1) A click down or two on the Brake Lite (I usually start at 1 or 2 depending on room size) or (2) a significant twist of the Volume and Master knobs. Now, the Brake Lite may take away some of the dynamics but I know which of the two options is going to hurt my sound more.
To me, the Brake Lite is not really a choice or a question of yes or no but a necessity – and I'm damn happy I have it because I'd have to run my amp a lot lower than I'd like a lot of the time.
I don't think it squashes the dynamics that much, to be honest. If I start at 4, it sometimes seems a little flat but I don't think that's the amp signal being squashed but the lack of speaker interaction/compression/distortion which often gets neglected in the whole equation of guitar tone (this is why greenbacks are popular - they start getting dirty way earlier than, say, T75s). I think we just know our amps very well – and at a certain level of amp crunch we (perhaps unknowingly) expect a certain contribution from the speaker which we find lacking with the Brake Lite clamping down at 4.
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Post by djcakadave on Mar 8, 2015 7:15:41 GMT -7
Instead of an attenuator just get some Therapy
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Post by Baconator on Mar 9, 2015 8:10:59 GMT -7
Finally had my first gig with my Maz 18 NR on Saturday and I'm glad I had my Brake Lite. I have to agree with the folks that can't hear much of an impact on the tone especially in a stage mix. At home it seems to make a bit of a difference, but I suppose that could be interaction (or lack thereof) of the speaker as dergit mentions. The stage was pretty rough sounding but dialing in a good tone wasn't that tough and when things started to get louder (as they tend to towards the end of the night) I just went from 2 to 1 on the Brake Lite and adjusted the guitar volume accordingly. I'm going to keep taking mine with me to all my gigs.
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Post by daveyk on Mar 14, 2015 15:03:43 GMT -7
I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Your brain is the biggest impediment to hearing what you like when you use an attenuator. That's because you're doing it wrong. If you start with the attenuator in the thru position, get your sound, then turn down with the attenuator, your brain tells you something is missing. If you start with the attenuator at full attenuation (and by start I mean before exposing your ears to ANY loud music at all) and set up your sound, then turn the attenuator UP to get to your volume, you will have an entirely different experience. What I have never been able to understand is why so many guys are so resistant to trying it. ^^^This is the way to do it. Our brain tends to think that more volume is better. It's like when we listen to a pedal demo comparing 2 similar pedals and one pedal is louder than the other. A lot of the time we decide the louder one is better. I used to claim to hate my brake lite, but at a band practice a little while ago I was really digging my sound and at the end checked to make sure my brake lite was off and lo and behold it was 2 clicks on! The last show I played I powered up and dialed in my EQ starting with the brake lite on and really liked what I heard. Our set was recorded so I had the chance to hear the audio afterwards and still loved what I heard. Though I do notice a little treble roll off occasionally, the brake lite is a necessity in my opinion. It's hard to justify that less volume sounds better than more volume when you start with your attenuator off especially since we as guitar players know that more volume is always better !
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Post by daveyk on Mar 14, 2015 18:54:35 GMT -7
I do know what you're saying about the squashiness that the brake lite adds to the Maz. To me, if i'm playing on my own I can usually tell when the brake lite is on, but in a band setting I usually can't tell. A lot of it may be mental though.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 27, 2015 17:42:39 GMT -7
So I felt like tinkering today...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 27, 2015 17:54:05 GMT -7
Some of you were here when I did this, but others have probably missed it. Don't cheat - see if you can guess which is which before you read ahead for the answers. Attenuator Comparisons
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 27, 2015 18:09:11 GMT -7
So I felt like tinkering today... Awesome - you did exactly what I was trying to do with the tests I did back in the day. Excellent!
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 27, 2015 18:10:43 GMT -7
Yeah, I saw that, great thread! I just thought it'd be worthwhile to send exactly the same bit of guitar playing through the different levels of attenuation.
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Post by cap10toons on Mar 28, 2015 11:44:52 GMT -7
^^^Really well done.^^^
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Mar 28, 2015 14:48:53 GMT -7
Nice demo Marcus! Wih a full band I doubt I'd notice a difference. Thanks for sharing!!
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Post by daveyk on Mar 28, 2015 23:05:14 GMT -7
Excellent job!
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Post by doctorice on Jul 11, 2015 6:22:34 GMT -7
Great work and a fine complement to Steve's recordings. Other than known "nonlinearities" in our ears, the amount of speaker breakup due to different power hitting them would seem to be the only uncontrolled variable, which you mentioned. I'm not sure this would be a big factor with a MAZ with Doc's 10s, though. They have pretty high power ratings.
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Post by zpilot on Sept 7, 2015 22:19:11 GMT -7
To me it's not how an attenuator changes the sound (if any) that is an issue. It's the change in feel. I can definitely feel a difference and that in turn effects the way I play. Reactive attenuators seem to be better to me than purely resistive ones. I have a couple of resistive attenuators (one is a Brake Lite) and they are OK up to about 6dB of attenuation. Any more than that and I may as well be playing through my SS Vox practice amp.
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Post by simpleton on Sept 7, 2015 22:41:43 GMT -7
...... they are OK up to about 6dB of attenuation. Any more than that and I may as well be playing through my SS Vox practice amp. Well thank goodness or that poor little Vox would get no lovin I find myself enjoying the heck out of the Brake Lite with the Monza...and I was determined not to like the attenuators because of past ones...they weren't bad but I didn't like the change. I love the Brake Lite 2 clicks or less and I'm in strong like with 3 & 4. It's compression or even gain esk... It's just ANOTHER cool sound I can get from the amp that I couldn't otherwise is how I've been feeling lately. I'm always using it at home and so my ear accepts it lovingly now. I notice it more if I use drive or fuzz...you know, louder stuff...as it hits the ceiling harder and makes it noticeable.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Sept 8, 2015 1:24:03 GMT -7
To me it's not how an attenuator changes the sound (if any) that is an issue. It's the change in feel. I can definitely feel a difference and that in turn effects the way I play. Reactive attenuators seem to be better to me than purely resistive ones. I have a couple of resistive attenuators (one is a Brake Lite) and they are OK up to about 6dB of attenuation. Any more than that and I may as well be playing through my SS Vox practice amp. But wouldn't you agree that having to significantly turn down the Master affects the feel way more than a Brake Lite does? I ascribe the lack of feel I get with the BL on 4 100% to the lack of perceived volume, not to the amp actually sounding different. And sometimes, on a small stage, you just have to turn it down if you want everything to sound good "out there". Also, personally, I prefer having my MAZ with the BL on 3 and some of the signal on a monitor in front of me rather than having the MAZ on full whack without it on the stage monitors. All depends on situation... but in order to master different situations, attenuators are a very valuable tool. Might be a different story with post phase inverter MV but with the MAZ, I don't want to have to touch the Volume and the Master when the tech tells me to turn it down.
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Post by zpilot on Sept 8, 2015 10:37:31 GMT -7
I grew up when bands were forced to "play to the room". The only things that were in the monitor were the vocals. I learned to bring the properly sized amp so I only had to make minor tweaks in my volume settings. Most of these amps didn't even have a master volume control. I've played with about everything imaginable to tame the sound going to the front of house. I have a standard setting on my MAZ Jr. where the master is in a range from about 2:00 to WFO. The tone and response doesn't really change that much in that range. Then I'll re-aim the amp so it's not cutting heads in the first few rows of the audience and especially so it is not pointing directly at the sound booth. Only then will I use an attenuator and then only a touch. Preferably only -3dB. My point is to use a combination of things and not rely on the attenuator to do it all which, as I've said, I don't care for.
I've spent a fair amount of time in the sound booth so I come at this problem from both points of view. I hate having to make the guitarists "squash" their sound because, as we all know, you play much better when you are comfortable with your sound. I suppose it all depends on what you are used to hearing. I've run sound for players using digital modeling amps that sounded like crap but they were happy with that gear because that's what they played when they were learning. I come from a different era.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 11:09:46 GMT -7
Right sized amp for the gig indeed.
I'd add that I use attenuators all the time for recording (because microphones don't like to be brutalized).
For live I still prefer the right sized amp for the gig.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Sept 8, 2015 14:10:05 GMT -7
I'm not saying it's either or. In principle, I agree with what zpilot is saying, only the brake lite comes much earlier in that protocol for me. That doesn't mean I'll bring the 100W full stack and squash it to bits with attenuation. I'll bring the MAZ 18, which is the right sized amp if a little on the large side. And I'll bring the brake lite which is a tool to size it down if need be. It's powered by 6p14ps by the way, which brings down the output by a bit, by the way. I'll bring the original EH EL84s as well should I ever need to size up (hasn't happened yet). Good to hear you know the other side of the coin. Many guitarists don't. Instead they often have a "f*** the soundguy" mentality that doesn't help the band as a whole sound good.
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