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Post by brownj4 on Mar 4, 2013 19:08:37 GMT -7
Hey everybody,
I've joined the cult.... picked up my first Dr. Z today. Got a good deal on a Route 66, and am VERY excited!
But here's my dilemma....
I didn't bother getting a Z cab, because I already have a 2x12 at home. But I'm really not diggin' the sound with my cab, and was hoping someone could provide some info that might help. The short version is that I'm running the Route 66 into a Traynor YCX212 loaded with Celestion 70/80s. I think this is the problem. Here's a bit of detail. I'll "try" to keep it short.
I'm in a cover band that plays mostly rock tunes, 50s to present, everything from Chuck Berry to ZZTop, Big&Rich to Weezer. And for a bar, we get pretty loud. My main amp before this band was a really nice '76 Fender Princeton Reverb (1x10, 12 Watts), but it just can't keep up with the band. Since I liked the sound, I thought I'd try unplugging the amp speaker and just using the amp as a head, and running it into the Traynor YCX212 cab. Since the amp is still so underpowered for the band, this really didn't help me all that much. I'm pushing the amp so hard that its extremely sensitive, and it's prone to feedback. Very annoying. I even have a Fulltone Fat Boost on at all times just to kick up the dBs a bit.
After about 2 years of being annoyed with it (and buying too many pedals to try to fix the problem), I finally got fed up. I've been OBSESSIVELY watching vids, listening to clips, and reading reviews of the Route 66, so after doing a lot of homework I finally went for it and got one. Totally excited to get it home and play it, but when I fired it up and started playing through the Traynor 212 cab, it was underwhelming (blasphemy?) to say the least.
I should also note, I'm playing a '77 Gibson ES-355 on the bridge pickup. Sweet guitar.
Now, I know this amp is LOUD. But I also know my band is pretty loud, so I made a conscious decision to get the Route 66. But with this cab it just seems like I have to crank it to the point where its WAY too loud before I even get good tone out of it. Also it was very trebly.
So here's a few questions. I'd LOVE some input, because I really want to let this amp shine the way I've heard it in so many vids and sound clips.
- I've heard mixed reviews about the Celestion 70/80s. Do you suppose this could be the reason for the underwhelming sound? - the 70/80s are 80 watts each, and the cab is 160 watts total, 4ohms. Would running a 32 watt amp into 160 watts be the cause for poor tone and the need to crank it so loud? - I'm looking for some really nice breakup, but at a volume that's not TOO loud, so I was thinking about going with a 1x12. Based on what I've read on these forums, it seems like a 30watt speaker like a G12H or a Vintage 30 should be ok. Maybe a 112 Z cab with one of those speakers. Thoughts?
Again, thanks for any advice you might have. I'm thinking the poor tone is due to those 70/80s (or maybe I'm just crazy), but I'd love to hear what you have to say about making it better.
Thanks!
j.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 21:18:00 GMT -7
Congrats on the purchase. Welcome to the forum too.
If the Route is used I recommend you get new tubes for her. Get her properly biased by a tech if you are not able to do it yourself. I recommend the reissue Gold Lions for output tubes. The ef86 can make the amp sound bright. Although I have to say the Route 66 should not be bright at all no matter what you have for the ef86, jmho. Get a balanced 12ax7lps for the PI. The power tube (rectifier) makes a difference also. If it has a 5U4 in there the amp will be a little more quiet, but also gives up the goods a bit sooner. A GZ34/5AR4 will give you about 40 watts, and be nice a loud.
Most people agree that a Vintage 30 will not sound well with the Route unless it's in a good 2x12 and matched with a speaker that will cut some of the mid hump in the V30. This is mostly because the Route is already a mids heavy amp all be it low mids.
The G12H is a great speaker. I used a Heritage G12H(75Hz) in a 1x12 for my Route for years. The Route is loud. Probably one of the cleaner amps Doc has depending on the vintage. To get the goods all dials at 3 o'clock!
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Post by pcns on Mar 5, 2013 8:03:30 GMT -7
Great suggestions in the above post. After doing those you might consider adding a brake on the back side so you can crank it up without blowing away you audience
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Mar 5, 2013 14:39:54 GMT -7
I thought of tube health and bias drift right off as well.
As far as attenuation, of course the Air Brake sound and feels great, but for really dropping the volume the Swart Night Light works great, esp. when the RT66 is biased up for a 5U4 recto.
I was surprised at how much saggy power tube compression and rich OD I got at home volumes w/ the Swart.
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Post by jb on Mar 5, 2013 15:13:55 GMT -7
Doc summed it up very well. Couldn't agree more about the speaker. Need a speaker with scooped mids to make up for the strong mids generated by the amp. I also have to run a clean boost to brighten up the sound.
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 5, 2013 18:32:52 GMT -7
Well thanks everyone for the input! This definitely gives me some ideas. I think I'll take a look at a 112 Z cab with a G12H in it. As far as the tubes go, here's one more quick question. I'm new to the idea of Biasing... When I re-tubed my Princeton Reverb, I got all the tubes from a site called thetubestore.com, where they have tube packages based on different amps. Of course, you can pick and choose as you like, but its a nice feature on the site to have packages ready-built based on the amp. Anyway, they have a "Dr. Z Route 66" package, which includes: 1 NOS Tesla EF86 1 Sovtek 12AX7-LPS 2 Genalex Gold Lion KT66 1 Electro-Harmonix 5U4GBEH www.thetubestore.com/Shop-by-Amp/Route-66/Route-66-Dr-Z-PackageSo my question is, if I were to purchase this tube kit, what are the chances that I would still have to Bias? Is the biasing dependent now on how the amp is already set up with the current tubes? Part of the reason I'm asking is because I'm living in a town that's about 3 hours away from any real music stores. I can order tubes online and have them shipped to my door, but as soon as I want to do something like have someone bias the amp, its a lot bigger hassle. Thanks again! j.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 21:21:39 GMT -7
Not knowing how the amp is currently set up makes the question a bit more difficult to answer. Biasing the amp will allow you to run the amp safely. If the current set up contains a power tube that is of the 5AR4/GZ34 variety then you should be safe without a rebias. I say should be. It all depends on if the amp is properly biased for the 5AR4/GZ34. Using a bias tool is the easiest/safest way to bias your amp short of having a knowledgeable tech do it. A Bias Rite is very easy to use and can be ordered from Tube Depot (I believe). It comes with easy to follow instructions. You still have to remove the chassis from the head to access the bias pot. This can be done safely if you avoid touching the circuitry inside the chassis.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 21:29:23 GMT -7
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Post by jb on Mar 6, 2013 8:33:39 GMT -7
I recently put the Dr.Z/Tubestore package in and am happy with the sound. You do have to check the bias though. The Weber Bias Rite is easy to use.
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 6, 2013 18:44:52 GMT -7
I haven't had time yet to open up the amp to see what's inside, but I did take a look at the serial number. According to the zforum, U10708 indicates the amp was made in 2010. I can't be certain, but it's very possible that the tubes/bias have never been changed. So maybe its just the celestion 70/80s that are not as pleasing to my ears as I expected. I did check online, too, and Humbucker Music has Dr Z 112 cabs loaded with G12H30's in stock. Might be time for a cab upgrade...
Here's one question that wasn't really answered above: I understand that different speakers will help to create a different sound, but what about wattage? Would the fact that my cab is 160watts (80watts/speaker) make any difference in sound? Or is it more the type of speaker that causes the sound difference.
Either way, I think I'm going get a new set of tubes and read up on how to bias without killing myself. Seems pretty simple as long as you're careful and know what you're getting into.
I appreciate all the help! I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes!
j.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 21:58:22 GMT -7
The higher wattage speakers in your 2x12 won't break up much with a 32 watt amp pushing them. Some guys are fine with that. Others prefer some speaker distortion. A lower wattage less efficient speaker (96-98dbs or lower), will give you more speaker distortion, especially in a 1x12.
It's just a matter of finding what sounds good to you.
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Post by bwc on Mar 6, 2013 22:36:51 GMT -7
Here's one question that wasn't really answered above: I understand that different speakers will help to create a different sound, but what about wattage? Would the fact that my cab is 160watts (80watts/speaker) make any difference in sound? Or is it more the type of speaker that causes the sound difference. j. It's pretty much the type of speaker that makes the difference. For example, people absolutely love the Doc's 4x10 cabinet, which has 4 x 70 watt speakers. With 280 watt handling, you don't get speaker breakup but it sounds freaking awesome. You'll get speaker breakup running into lower wattage speakers, but one isn't necessarily better than the other. It sounds like you don't like the sound coming from those particular speakers, so I'd swap them out and try different ones. You'll find something you really dig if you keep trying different models, buy em used and sell the ones that don't work. Good luck!
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Post by mtlrecords on Mar 8, 2013 8:18:35 GMT -7
I love Z amps and I have owned and used a variety. However, it sounds like you bought the Route 66 without playing it first and maybe it's not the best fit for you. You should try as many cabs/speaker combinations as you can before deciding anything definitively though. Try a pair of 25w Greenback Celestions in a semi-open back cab (Germino, Dr. Z). This would be my personal favorite for ANY KT-66/6L6 (Marshall-ish) amp between 18-50 watts.
If no speaker cab seems to get you where you wanted, why not just buy another 70's Fender Princeton? Run your (very nice) looking Gibson into an A-B-Y box and double your power with two amps that you already know you love the tone of.
Cheers and updates on what you decide would be cool to know!
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 10, 2013 8:31:20 GMT -7
Yes, MTL, I did buy before trying. But this goes back to what I was saying earlier. You just can't find a Z amp around here. There's no decent music stores within about 3 hours of me, and even when you do get out to a big store like Long & McQuade, nobody has any Z's outside of an M12. That's why I did a ton of research and listened to a lot of sound and video clips before getting the Route 66. And as VERY tempting as it is to run two Princetons, I just don't want the hassle of gigging with two amps right now. It would probably take up the same footprint, but I'd rather just have a little amp head, and a small cab.
I think there's a lot of good input here, and what might be tripping me up is the fact that I tried to cheap out a bit and tried to get the head sounding good with my pre-existing 212.
My next step is going to be getting a G12H30 in a Z 1x12, and I think I'm going to get a new set of tubes and a bias rite to set up the amp bias. Even if its already set up correctly and the tubes are ok, it'll be nice to learn about it. I am an engineer (though not electrical) and I love learning about this stuff.
Just one more quickie: When you bias the amp, why do you need to check multiple tubes if you've only got one bias pot to work with? Is this just to ensure there's nothing really wrong with the tubes, and there's no mismatch?
Thanks again for all the help everybody. I'm looking forward to makin this amp sing! I'll definitely update you with what I do.
j.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 11:49:50 GMT -7
Just one more quickie: When you bias the amp, why do you need to check multiple tubes if you've only got one bias pot to work with? Is this just to ensure there's nothing really wrong with the tubes, and there's no mismatch? j. I always checked both tubes to make sure there was not a huge mismatch. Mismatch is usually not an issue if you order from a reliable tube supplier, but sometimes things happen. It's good to know that voltages are ok as well as bias points.
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 10, 2013 11:56:26 GMT -7
Ok that's what I thought. Thanks Doc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 15:54:05 GMT -7
Ok that's what I thought. Thanks Doc. You are welcome.
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Post by mtlrecords on Mar 10, 2013 20:10:45 GMT -7
Yep, thanks to Guitar Center, the lousy economy and/or living outside of a major city, there are fewer music stores than ever. I totally understand that it's hard to find some gear before trying and you might be buying signt unseen/unheard. Believe me, I've done it. Especially with pedals. I'll listen to 10 demos on Youtube and read several reviews...then I take the gamble and hope it works in my rig. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
After re-reading your original post, I realize that it could be the amp not performing correctly. Tubes could be shot, or perhaps something else (incorrect bias, cold solder, etc.) could be affecting the tone. You may not have any heard how a Route 66 can sound yet, at least if something is off with it. Best of luck and welcome to the deep end of the (amp) pool at the Z-Forum. These guys are knowledgeable and genuinely helpful. I've gained more than I've given. Cheers!
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 11, 2013 9:30:43 GMT -7
Actually, just since my last post I decided to try the 66 with the 10" speaker in my Princeton Reverb. From what I can see, its either the original from '77, or its a replacement that is still quite old. I just left the speaker in the PR, but plugged the speaker directly into the 66. Anyway, I plugged into the princeton speaker and WOW! Amazing tone! Just playing it for about 20 minutes already had me questioning whether there was anything wrong with the amp setup at all. It might just be that the Celestion 70/80s don't play well (for me, anyway) with the amp. I have heard reviews that said they had a lot of high end. That seems to be the case for me, because when I cranked the 66 with the 212 cab of 70/80s, the only way I could describe the sound was ear-piercing. It wasn't so much the volume, but the highs were just very abrasive. But the 10" in the PR was great!
the 10" is rated at 25 watts, so I made sure I didn't play too long. But I pushed it pretty hard and it was singin! Cleans were great, and the dirt was amazing!
I think I'm still going to get some new tubes and check the bias, but now I am really excited to try the amp with a new cab. The only problem I have now is what to get. Based on what I've read, I've been stuck on the 112 with a G12H30, but now I'm almost wondering if I should try a 2x10 instead. the 1x10 had great break up, and was still quite loud. I think 2 10s with this amp would definitely be enough for my band.
I was all set to get a Z 1x12 but now I'm starting to consider getting a Mojotone extension cab. I could get it made with the same black grillcloth as my 66 (yes, its just black... not salt/pepper. Was this normal in 2010?), and the Mojotone extension cabs have separate baffles so I could configure the cab with 1x12 or 2x10s if I wanted to change it up. Might be a good way to see what I like best. Try both, and then sell the speaker(s) that I don't end up liking the best.
I feel like in my quest to make this amp shine, I'm getting closer every day. It's nice to get so much feedback from the forum. Thanks Everyone!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 12:03:46 GMT -7
I believe Dr. Z's favorite speaker configuration with the 66 is his 4x10. So you might be onto something.
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Post by edoetsch on Mar 13, 2013 11:52:07 GMT -7
Hmm, anyone "attenuate" the Route 66 or Kt-45 with the 1x10" cab. The Red Fang handles 75 watts so should be fine for handling.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 16:33:42 GMT -7
^^^ Give it a try, and let us know what ya' think.
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Post by brownj4 on Mar 18, 2013 17:32:15 GMT -7
After such great advice from everyone here, I thought I'd give a little update...
I haven't replaced the tubes in my '66 yet, nor have I biased.
However, after much deliberation, I decided to go for a 1x12 Z Cab and left it closed back. I was thinking about a Mojotone cab for a while, but then I thought "hey, if I want this amp to shine, why wouldn't I get a cab from the good Doctor?"
I got the 112 with a G12H30. Also picked up a Brake Lite SA.
Wow, wow, WOW! NOW I know what everybody is talking about! I've messed around with a ton of settings, and it sounds good in so many different places! I've had it clean with the bass/treb at about 10 and the volume at around 3, just a bit of dirt with the bass/treb at about 9 oclock and the volume at about 11, and I've dimed it and just loved every note. Just last night I recorded with the band. The guys were lovin the sound. I had bass/treb at about 3 oclock / 5 oclock, and the volume between 12 and 1. Definitely needed the brake lite too, because it was LOUD!
I LOVED the sound. Especially on one of the tunes we did where I was using a slide. Just sounded amazing. Great feel, great response, and some really nice sustain. And of all the tube amps I've played (which really isn't THAT many), I just can't believe how much it cleans up WITHOUT losing too much volume when you roll off the volume knob on your guitar.
I think the brake lite is definitely helping, because standing right in front of that thing and trying to get it dirty sounding just kills your ears. Probably contributed to me thinking the sound was a little off. But the biggest change in the sound definitely came from changing cabs and speakers. The G12H30 sounds great.
I still plan on retubing and biasing, but WOW, I'm already just so happy with this amp!
Thanks again to everyone who offered up their 2 cents. If there's any major differences when I retube/bias, I'll be sure to let you know.
Cheers,
j.
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Post by dock66 on Mar 18, 2013 19:51:36 GMT -7
Congrats on a great amp. A new set of fresh tubes may make a huge difference.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 21:50:15 GMT -7
It's good to hear the positive update. New tubes ought'a knock it right out of the park.
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Post by simpleton on Mar 21, 2013 20:27:22 GMT -7
I thought of tube health and bias drift right off as well. As far as attenuation, of course the Air Brake sound and feels great, but for really dropping the volume the Swart Night Light works great, esp. when the RT66 is biased up for a 5U4 recto. I was surprised at how much saggy power tube compression and rich OD I got at home volumes w/ the Swart. My memory of the Swart Night Light is that it is intended for amp 22watts or less.....Thought the Route 66 was more than that. Probably an non needed info but just in case he was looking into the Night Light or for you Digited in case you might be over working yours. And glad to hear that things are going good for you brother.
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Mar 21, 2013 20:59:11 GMT -7
I thought of tube health and bias drift right off as well. As far as attenuation, of course the Air Brake sound and feels great, but for really dropping the volume the Swart Night Light works great, esp. when the RT66 is biased up for a 5U4 recto. I was surprised at how much saggy power tube compression and rich OD I got at home volumes w/ the Swart. My memory of the Swart Night Light is that it is intended for amp 22watts or less.....Thought the Route 66 was more than that. Probably an non needed info but just in case he was looking into the Night Light or for you Digited in case you might be over working yours. And glad to hear that things are going good for you brother. You're exactly right RE max wattage for the Night Light. I was OK w/ using it with my RT66 because I read on Swart's website that going over 22w shortens the life of the bulb I bought a 20 pack for like $8 and cranked up that Route! No probs at all.
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