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Post by Guitar1 on Jan 7, 2013 5:16:38 GMT -7
I am looking to get some backup tubes. Should I stay with the stock stuff or upgrade? Any recommendations?
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Post by Abandoned on Jan 7, 2013 6:35:30 GMT -7
I tend to trust Dr. Z's choices for stability. Could you find others tonally to your liking better?... yeah probably. But Z is trying to give you the best tone and stability in one package without breaking the bank.
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Jan 7, 2013 9:59:40 GMT -7
Abandoned makes a great point and is a completely reasonable approach, but for the sake of chewing the gear fat, I'll counter with some thoughts on tube rolling Just my opinion and I don't claim any Master of the Tube Amp World title! I don't (yet) own a M12, but my Z-28 and prior Route 66 has the same basic pre-amp architecture. I LOVE it! So versatile and simple. V1: EF86. V1 is the tube that most affects your tone in most amps. Trying different tubes here will make the most noticeable difference. EF86 are one type of tubes that many folks still prefer NOS over current production. NOS Winged C is the Doc's recommended for your M12. I like Dario Miniwatts, but they are super hard to find now. Hopefully my stash of 4 is enough to hold me for a while! I just ordered a pair of the Winged C's to try and they appear VERY similar to the Dario in structure. V2: This is your phase inverter (PI). The Doc recommends a normal 12AX7 for you. I understand that tube rolling in PI affects more about the feel and the texture of breakup. My Monza, Route 66, and Orange Rocker for example sounded great with a 12AX7LPS in PI, but I prefer the 5751 in my Z28's PI for a softer feel. V3-4. DrZ specs EHX EL84s here in matched pairs. Matched pair means that the tubes have been tested be the retailer and are closely matched in their current draw. This is important for fixed bias (bias is your amp's 'idle') amps that use a common bias control for all power tubes. In cathode bias amps like you M12, the amp will adjust itself to what the tubes' current draw may be. In theory, matched sets of power tubes are not necessary in cathode bias amps and can contribute to some different textures in power section harmonics and breakup. The Doc recommends matched sets for his cathode designs so there you go. I speculate this has to do with consistency from tube swap to tube swap, but I'm just some random guy on an internet forum! There can be some differences across current EL84 offerings so do some digging online for thoughts on what you could possibly hear between the EHX and a JJ, Mullard RI, TAD, etc. Sometimes one brand will breakup earlier than another, one may tend to be brighter and harder, another warmer and softer. V5: Rectifier. Your M12 takes a 5Y3. Dr. Z calls for a JJ. I've had great results w/ NOS rectifiers in my Z amps and they are often a relatively low cost way to get some great vintage glass into your amp. A quick note: I also understand that unlike preamp and power tubes, the rectifier doesn't slowly wear out degrading your tone incrementally; they either work or they don't. Hope this helps! Again, I make no claims as an expert, but I've been very curious about trying different tubes in all of my amps and have picked up a few pieces of conventional wisdom en route. Dr. Z's crew is great for answering questions directly as well. If you're a tinkerer, have fun! If not, just roll with the recommended and put it out of your mind. Win Win!
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Post by jesslm02 on Jan 7, 2013 11:28:20 GMT -7
I've actually been playing mine with a NOS 5v4 rectifier. It's quite nice actually. It does bump the volume up just a hair but I play it in lo mode and it works great.
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Post by Albert on Jan 8, 2013 6:50:29 GMT -7
Another option for a rectifier tube is the 5r4gb it keeps the voltage in the same range as the 5y3 but has more current capability ..find NOS for the EF86 and dont bother with NOS power tubes unless you're going to record ... Find a good PI tube that has been checked ...that should do it ... In the end its a matter of preference and $$$$ ....
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Post by Albert on Jan 8, 2013 6:52:07 GMT -7
I've actually been playing mine with a NOS 5v4 rectifier. It's quite nice actually. It does bump the volume up just a hair but I play it in lo mode and it works great. Need to try that.... I have a couple to try .....curious to see where the voltage ends up ....
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Post by Guitar1 on Jan 9, 2013 4:22:00 GMT -7
Thanks for the info digited.
I contacted three online tube dealers. The first two were just trying to sell me something, but the third was alot different. I will not name the first two. The third was Mike Kropotkin at kcanostubes.com. I told him what I wanted to do, he listened and kindly responded to several emails. He explained his recommendations to me. I believed his help to be genuine as he did not try to sell me the most costliest tubes he had. I placed a rather substantial order that he promptly shipped. I really like this type of customer service in this day and age.
So now with the tubes enroute and the two speakers I have, a NOS Celestion G12M and a G12H, both made in England, the tinkering begins.
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Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Jan 9, 2013 7:57:29 GMT -7
Thanks for the info digited. I contacted three online tube dealers. The first two were just trying to sell me something, but the third was alot different. I will not name the first two. The third was Mike Kropotkin at kcanostubes.com. I told him what I wanted to do, he listened and kindly responded to several emails. He explained his recommendations to me. I believed his help to be genuine as he did not try to sell me the most costliest tubes he had. I placed a rather substantial order that he promptly shipped. I really like this type of customer service in this day and age. So now with the tubes enroute and the two speakers I have, a NOS Celestion G12M and a G12H, both made in England, the tinkering begins. Right on, KCA is great. He's quite active as a fount of knowledge on TGP. What tube did you end up with? Report back, man! Even Dr. Z amp I've owned lets the voice of every part of the sonic chain be heard; really fun amps to experiment with.
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Post by Guitar1 on Jan 28, 2013 16:08:08 GMT -7
I got: NOS Tesla EF806S, NOS JAN GE 12AX7WA, NOS Tungsram EL84 (matched pair), JAN Sylvania 5Y3GTA from kcanostubes.com
I then got: EF86 Mullard made 10M series, 12AX7 Mazda France 1960s Silver Plate, EL84 Mullard 1967, matched pair, 5Y3/6106 Bendix military stock 1960s and a Telefunken EF86 from Brent Jessee - audiotubes.com
And just to round things out I got a Celestion Gold. Needless to say I have more in tubes and speakers than the amp. I cannot begin to explain how good it is.
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Post by mazmaster on Mar 10, 2013 21:12:51 GMT -7
I had issues with my stock EF86 failing on me. It wasn't a Winged 'C' (can't remember what it was - it was a brand I've never heard of), but Doc quickly sent out a pair of Winged 'C's which sounded much better than the original mystery tube. I later picked up an Amperex NOS EF86 which has a bit more air in the top end and complexity in the mids...a very nice flavor. In the process of debugging the original EF86 issue, I ended up with a pair of lightly used older JJ EL84s in place of the EH which I really liked. They were a little fatter and smoother than the EHs, but really not better or worse, just different. Messed with a bunch of tubes in the PI and ended up right back at Doc's stock LPS. I tried a couple RCA blackplate 5Y3s from 1952 which I found in my Dad's stash in his basement when getting his home ready to sell after moving him out due to Alzheimer's . But, they increased the voltage a bit over the JJ and made the amp a little stiff and bright so I stuck the JJ back in there. Haven't touched a tube since. Experiment and have fun! - Dave
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Post by zm12 on Mar 10, 2013 21:57:30 GMT -7
Yes, i have some Winged C EF86's as well as a JJ5Y3S just to have as backup. Just was wondering if anybody tried a different brand EF86. I also have a bunch of EL84's kicking around. Doc says you can just install EL84's and go. No other work required. How are you liking the amp so far Dave? Thanks
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