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Post by doctorice on Jul 19, 2010 6:13:38 GMT -7
There's been ample discussion about whether attenuators do or do not affect tone. Steve (benttop) has demonstrated via recordings that it sometimes sounds as if the tone is being altered, but that it is not. It's the nature of our hearing to perceive an alteration of the frequency balance at softer volumes. (this effect has been known for a long time. Steve's effort really drives it home.) What struck me the other day was that use of even a truly transparent attenuator can affect tone if speaker distortion is an element of the overall tone. If the speaker has loads of headroom, then presumably this would not be a big issue. On the other hand, if a speaker starts to breakup at modest input power levels, attenuation could drop the power fed to the speaker below its breakup threshold. You guys probably figured this out already. D'oh on me
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Post by countrybilly83 (Ty) on Jul 19, 2010 7:58:37 GMT -7
Oh that's peskey Fletcher-Munson curve throws everyone for a loop..
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 19, 2010 9:18:01 GMT -7
Yeah, that's one aspect that I think I mentioned a couple years ago when I did those recordings. If you like greenies and run them pretty hot, the attenuator is going to change what you're hearing because the speakers won't be in breakup territory any more. There are SO MANY variables in this whole attenuator thang...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2010 21:49:18 GMT -7
I figured that's why my Stangeray sounds so good without the Brake Lite. It really pushes the Celestion Blues and sounds magical.
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Post by nicholas on Jul 24, 2010 21:10:38 GMT -7
There's been ample discussion about whether attenuators do or do not affect tone. Steve (benttop) has demonstrated via recordings that it sometimes sounds as if the tone is being altered, but that it is not. It's the nature of our hearing to perceive an alteration of the frequency balance at softer volumes. (this effect has been known for a long time. Steve's effort really drives it home.) What struck me the other day was that use of even a truly transparent attenuator can affect tone if speaker distortion is an element of the overall tone. If the speaker has loads of headroom, then presumably this would not be a big issue. On the other hand, if a speaker starts to breakup at modest input power levels, attenuation could drop the power fed to the speaker below its breakup threshold. You guys probably figured this out already. D'oh on me Yea, thats the thing for me with any brand of attenuator. But I'll take it one step further. Look at it from a different angle so to speak. Most of us know that the relationship between the output transformer and speaker is what makes an amp "feel" the way it does. As the speaker moves back and forth it constantly loads and unloads the transformer. It's kinda like water in a pipe moving back and forth super fast. As the output transformer pushes the "water" to the speaker, the "water" pushes the speaker out. When the speaker rebounds it pushes the "water" back into the output transformer. The harder the speaker is pushed the further and further is travels in its voice coil, pushing more and more "water" back and forth, the transformers become saturated as the speaker pushes back. The amp starts to feel alive in your hands. Putting anything between them disturbs that relationship. Dr.Z amps are very touch sensitive. Picking softly can be almost clean, and digging in can bring it a rewarding crunch. Not all tube amps behave this way, to this degree. But putting a load (resistor) between the two most critical parts of the amp seems to bring the amp down to me. I have a brakelite, I think it works better than the HotPlate or Weber mass. Click one is fairly transparent, but it doesnt really tame the volume enough to justify it. Anytime I use an attenuator (or any device for that matter put between the output of the amp and the speaker) I notice a big difference in the feel of the amp and don't like it at all. No matter at home or at practice, I feel a difference. The tone is also altered but that can usually be eq'd out , or close to out. Its more about the difference in feel rather than tone to me. I may be the only one who feels this way. It seems most feel you have to have it with a Dr.Z amp. I respectfully disagree. It's the full monte for me
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 24, 2010 21:31:39 GMT -7
Yea, thats the thing for me with any brand of attenuator. But I'll take it one step further. Look at it from a different angle so to speak. Most of us know that the relationship between the output transformer and speaker is what makes an amp "feel" the way it does. As the speaker moves back and forth it constantly loads and unloads the transformer. It's kinda like water in a pipe moving back and forth super fast. As the output transformer pushes the "water" to the speaker, the "water" pushes the speaker out. When the speaker rebounds it pushes the "water" back into the output transformer. The harder the speaker is pushed the further and further is travels in its voice coil, pushing more and more "water" back and forth, the transformers become saturated as the speaker pushes back. The amp starts to feel alive in your hands. Putting anything between them disturbs that relationship. Dr.Z amps are very touch sensitive. Picking softly can be almost clean, and digging in can bring it a rewarding crunch. Not all tube amps behave this way, to this degree. But putting a load (resistor) between the two most critical parts of the amp seems to bring the amp down to me. I have a brakelite, I think it works better than the HotPlate or Weber mass. Click one is fairly transparent, but it doesnt really tame the volume enough to justify it. Anytime I use an attenuator (or any device for that matter put between the output of the amp and the speaker) I notice a big difference in the feel of the amp and don't like it at all. No matter at home or at practice, I feel a difference. The tone is also altered but that can usually be eq'd out , or close to out. Its more about the difference in feel rather than tone to me. I may be the only one who feels this way. It seems most feel you have to have it with a Dr.Z amp. I respectfully disagree. It's the full monte for me The thing is, if you simply turn your amp down a couple db, you'll feel exactly the same way about the effect on your amp's feel. It is a massively complex interaction between the speaker, the air molecules, the eardrum, and the synapses in your brain. We can struggle with adjectives all night long - in the final analysis, each of us makes our choice and lives with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2010 16:23:53 GMT -7
I agree that using an attenuator is not a perfect solution. It's a compromise. But I think I get a better tone at volumes I can use at church with the Brake Lite than without it. Whether or not it sounds different that it would cranked it still sound better, to me, at that volume.
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Post by nicholas on Jul 26, 2010 18:03:09 GMT -7
Most of my amps have a master volume, or they are very low wattage. Maybe an attenuator works better on medium - high wattage non master amps. They just dont seem to work so great for me with a decent master volume amp. If I was gonna play at a church, and my tone was gonna be cleanish to vintage od, I'd use a tiny amp like a Emery Sound micro baby and mic it. They are fun little amps. I only play at home and in the down and dirty small bars. Have a good ol' master on the MAZ, and just cant come to grips with the brakelight. I bet it works much better on say a Remedy or Stangray. Or a vintage 100w plexi for that matter. But yes. We all make choices and live with them. How about this? The tone chain starts in the brain, it move the fingers, the fingers move the strings, the strings goose the pickup, the pickup hits the pedals, the pedals slam the amp, the amp burns all that through glass bottles of joy, the glass bottles of joy rub the speaker, the speaker shakes the floor and vibrates a tiny bone in your ear drum, the tiny bone sends a signal back to the brain. Full circle. Your brain says nice choice. Buy more DR.Z's. Peace guys, no bad mojo to the brakelight, just not for me.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jul 26, 2010 20:35:50 GMT -7
Most of my amps have a master volume, or they are very low wattage. Maybe an attenuator works better on medium - high wattage non master amps. They just dont seem to work so great for me with a decent master volume amp. If I was gonna play at a church, and my tone was gonna be cleanish to vintage od, I'd use a tiny amp like a Emery Sound micro baby and mic it. They are fun little amps. I only play at home and in the down and dirty small bars. Have a good ol' master on the MAZ, and just cant come to grips with the brakelight. I bet it works much better on say a Remedy or Stangray. Or a vintage 100w plexi for that matter. But yes. We all make choices and live with them. How about this? The tone chain starts in the brain, it move the fingers, the fingers move the strings, the strings goose the pickup, the pickup hits the pedals, the pedals slam the amp, the amp burns all that through glass bottles of joy, the glass bottles of joy rub the speaker, the speaker shakes the floor and vibrates a tiny bone in your ear drum, the tiny bone sends a signal back to the brain. Full circle. Your brain says nice choice. Buy more DR.Z's. Peace guys, no bad mojo to the brakelight, just not for me. Oh wow... If you're turning your master down on the Maz Jr, you are missing out on some of the more glorious of its tones... just sayin'...
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Post by trevorb on Jul 26, 2010 22:46:14 GMT -7
Oh wow... If you're turning your master down on the Maz Jr, you are missing out on some of the more glorious of its tones... just sayin'... +1 Steve. Yes the Maz has a wonderful Master volume, but the real yumminess is found when it's wide open.
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