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Post by prsdriss on Mar 22, 2006 19:55:52 GMT -7
Hi there,
I have a Mesa MarkI reissue. It is an incredible amp...the only drawback is that it is ridiculously loud at just 2 !!! This is pretty much the same amp that Santana uses (also he has a dumble now as well) My most important feature would be be able to turn the master volume to at least 5 BUT KEEP THE SAME TONE!!! Since Tone is my number 1 requirement, please tell me why the Airbrake is better r perhaps not as good as the THD plate. I need to make a decision and buy a unit. Thanks for the honesty P.S. (the Mark I has a master volume. I usually have the preamp set at 7 and master set at 1.5 which sounds thin and fuzzy.
Cheers
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 23, 2006 9:29:28 GMT -7
Hi there, I have a Mesa MarkI reissue. It is an incredible amp...the only drawback is that it is ridiculously loud at just 2 !!! This is pretty much the same amp that Santana uses (also he has a dumble now as well) My most important feature would be be able to turn the master volume to at least 5 BUT KEEP THE SAME TONE!!! Since Tone is my number 1 requirement, please tell me why the Airbrake is better r perhaps not as good as the THD plate. I need to make a decision and buy a unit. Thanks for the honesty P.S. (the Mark I has a master volume. I usually have the preamp set at 7 and master set at 1.5 which sounds thin and fuzzy. Cheers I have both here. Well actually, I have an Airbrake and two Hot Plates. There are specific advantages and disadvantages to each. Airbrake: Advantage is that you buy one, and it works for any impedance. It also has 2db steps as shipped, and you can change those steps by moving a part inside. Hot Plate: Advantage is that it has all of the jacks on the back and most of the controls on the front. Much easier to use that way. It has more controls too - three tone switches up front (bright, deep, and noise reduction) and includes a "Load" setting to shut the speakers completely off. You would use that to take advantage of the Line Out on the back, to run through a cab sim and off to the PA. Lots of guys do this. Airbrake Disadvantage: Jacks on the sides (huh?) and controls on the top make it a challenge to use sometimes. Works fine on a combo, but on a tall head/cab setup it's not as friendly. Hot Plate Disadvantage: One impedance per Hot Plate. If you change up your speaker setup often, you find you end up having to buy multiple Hot Plates. GRRR! The Hot Plate has 4db steps and they cannot be changed by the user. Sometimes 4db is a bigger step than I want. Both units are well made and a good value. I'm glad I have both - 4db steps would be too large for my Mazerati, so I use the Airbrake with that amp. My Flexi-50 is quite loud, so the 4db step works ok with that amp. As always, YMMV. Here is a web page I set up with pictures of the insides of both units: www.src.strayca.com/attenuators.htmOh by the way, both units seem to work without coloring the tone appreciably at one or two clicks of attenuation (about the most I use playing live). But when you get down to bedroom levels, expect to have to adjust your amp's tone settings. With that much attentuation, there are a bazillion factors that come into play, and you just cannot make it sound like a live performance without a ton of work. Part of it is the human ear response, part of it is the fact that you're not moving much air and your speakers just don't sound the same at that level. I'm sure there are other contributing factors, but at bedroom level you have to be willing to concede it's a pretty tough thing to get wonderful tone this way. It can be done though!
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Post by prsdriss on Mar 23, 2006 21:13:09 GMT -7
Well, thank you so much, for the elaborate and enlightning response. One dumb question, (I am pretty ignorant when it comes to DB) can you explain the 2 DB vs 4 DB. I assume the 4 DB is louder but , is there more to it?
Thanks a million
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Post by Telemanic on Mar 23, 2006 23:18:37 GMT -7
THE DB ADJUSTMENT IN THIS CASE IS REFERING TO ATTENUATION, OR REDUCTION IN SOUND LEVEL WORKING BACKWARDS FROM 0 ATTENUATION. THEREFORE IN THE STOCK CONFIGURATION EACH "CLICK" ON THE KNOB WILL RESULT IN A 2 DB REDUCTION IN SOUND LEVEL. THE INTERNAL ADJUSTMENT ALLOWS YOU TO SELECT A LARGER DEGREE (4DB) PER CLICK. ADJUSTED THAT WAY, 0 IS UN-ATTENUATED, #1 IS A 4DB REDUCTION, # 2 IS 8 DB, ETC. iTS REALLY JUST ADJUSTING THE TAPER, MUCH LIKE A RESISTOR ON A GUITAR VOLUME POT, YOU ULTIMATELY GET TO THE SAME PLACE, ITS JUST HOW QUICKLY DO YOU GET THERE. I FIND THE 2 DB STOCK SETTING IS PERFECT FOR LIVE APPLICATIONS. IF YOU NEED MORE JUST GO AN ADDITIONAL CLICK, INTO BEDROOM MODE IF YOU NEED. AND YES AT THAT POINT THEY ALL SQUASH YOUR SOUND A BIT, YOU KINDA LOOSE SOME AIR. AS WELL IVE OWNED A POWERBRAKE, HOT PLATE, AND ALESSANDRO MUZZLE. I FOUND THE AIRBRAKE, AND MUZZLE MORE TRANSPARENT THAN THE THD, AND HEAD AND SHOULDERS ABOVE THE MARSHALL PB. OF COURSE ONLY MY HUMBLE OPINION
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 23, 2006 23:32:52 GMT -7
dB is the abbreviation for decibels. Sound is measured in decibels, and a full explanation is beyond the scope of this forum. However, there are some simple guidelines. Some of this comes from arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-06/teces_06.htmlA decibel is a RELATIONSHIP between two values of POWER. In fact, the formula for power difference in dB = 10 log power A/power B. Not much help here, right? This can all be simplified by saying it takes twice the power to have a 3dB relationship between the first power and the second. So if you want your amp to be 3dB louder, you need to buy one that is twice as much power. I think that's right... So on my Hot Plate, if my 50 watt Flexi is wide open, and I switch the Hot Plate to -4dB, less than half of the power is being delivered to the speakers. That's a pretty big jump in theory, but these tube amps are awfully loud. I like the 2dB steps because that means on my Mazerati when it's running wide open, switching to -2dB means I'm sending slightly more than half power to the speakers. I've probably done a terrible job of explaining this, but suffice it to say that the Hot Plate has 0dB, -4dB, -8dB, -12dB, and -16dB settings. Once you get to -16dB the other control is active and you can turn the amp down further from -16dB to infinity (basically the speaker is off). On the Airbrake, you get positions 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and Bedroom. As shipped, 0 is through, 1 is -2dB, 2 is -4dB, 3 is -6dB, 4 is -8dB, and Bedroom activates the second knob that goes from -8 or so to about -32dB (I don't have my manual handy, so this might be slightly off). So as you can see, you can turn your amp WAY down with both of these boxes. But I rarely get much below -8dB any place I play. As I said, when you get real quiet from the attenuator, a lot of secondary factors make the amp sound a little odd. If anyone can explain dB better, please speak up!
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Post by Telemanic on Mar 23, 2006 23:46:04 GMT -7
P.S. remember, a given db reduction is what it is, whether or not it took 1 click or two clicks on a knob. its not how many clicks, its whatever the total db reduction you select, that will effect your tone quality. again its just how quickly do you get there
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Post by Telemanic on Mar 23, 2006 23:55:50 GMT -7
benttop, i'm not gonna touch that! I was never very good at math! that whole power vs. volume thing, ........... ugggg!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 24, 2006 8:21:32 GMT -7
benttop, i'm not gonna touch that! I was never very good at math! that whole power vs. volume thing, ........... ugggg! Yeah, it's not my strong suit either. Just remember when someone says -3 dB they are talking about half power. And +3 dB is double power. So when you look at these attenuators, and see that one has 2 dB incrments, and the other has 4 dB increments, one turns the volume down twice as fast. Four clicks on the THD Hot Plate is -16dB, while four clicks on the Airbrake is -8dB.
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Post by John on Mar 24, 2006 15:05:33 GMT -7
Telemanic....
I have a Marshall Powerbrake. From the whole Airbrake/Hotplate/Powerbrake debate, one theme that seems to come through is that the Powerbrake works well with Marshalls, but not well with very dynamic amps, like my MAZ Jr. Have you found this to be the case?
I figure I'll have to get an Airbrake because everyone says the powerbrake colors the sound too much. I personally don't hear it, but perhaps if I A-B against an Airbrake, I'll see what I've been missing all this time.
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Post by Telemanic on Mar 24, 2006 16:58:00 GMT -7
Yes i did feel for whatever reason the powerbrake seemed to work better with the marshall, I neglected to mention that. That being said, a/b-ing the AB, PB, & muzzle i still found the PB to be a "little" cardboardy sounding, or maybe it was more of a brittle FEELING, that i percived. I still think you may find the AB superior in any amp tho. The muzzle was a tie, and the hot plate, second. Soo subjective though. I'll look forward to what you think.
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Post by prsdriss on Mar 27, 2006 20:03:31 GMT -7
Thank you sooo much all for the great explanation of DB reduction. That was a learning experience...I feel dumb... I guess, I am going to take, your opinions, a leap of faith and just order the Airbrake :-) I want the least tone change possible...Seems that that is what the consensus is...The airbrake gives you the least tone change... I wish I had someone that has used it with a boogie and that can give me some feedback. (good or bad) Great forum!
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