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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 20, 2007 12:37:12 GMT -7
Oi! I've been looking for an amp to do the classic blues tones of the sixities, like Eric Clapton's Bluesbreaker tones, and the two amps I thought of were the two mentioned in the title. So... what's the differences? Of course I've heared a lot about newer Marshalls, I dunno if you get that in America, but in Europe Marshall is usualy loathed and despiced for everything they've made after the JCM 800. But does this go for the reissues as well? I know the Marshall comes with 5881's, but they can be switched to KT66s, right? The reason why I go towards the Marshall is that it's a combo, which I like a lot better than heads. I guess you want me to go for the Z, being this is the Z-forum, but give me pros and cons, please
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Post by kledbet on Oct 20, 2007 15:38:03 GMT -7
eivindaugust welcome onboard. I think both amps would work for you. Certainly nothing wrong with either. If a combo is a main consideration, then the Marshall would be the choice. The 66 is fatter sounding than the Marshall, its not an exact clone of the early Marshall just kind of heading that direction. If you could some how listen to both I think it would be the best thing to do.
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Post by zdogma on Oct 21, 2007 5:26:35 GMT -7
Agreed. If you do the rest of the chain properly, you should be able to nail down the tone with either one. The open back cab with Greenbacks and the germanium boost are key ingredients too.
I have played through the Marshall BB combo with KT 66's, so yes, it can be done, but you need to rebias.
The differences to my ear are a fuller bottom end with the Z and it takes pedals much better than the Marshall, but both are fine amps.
My only complaint about the BB combo was that I found it runs a bit hot. The KT 66's produce a lot of heat. The Route is nice and cool, the KT66's are really well vented and the chassis never heats up.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 21, 2007 7:30:42 GMT -7
All right, will try to check them both out! Thanks for the answers Just another quick question: Would the Z-28 also be able to produce the sound? I see it can be bought as a combo (though without the greenbacks). Should it be in the equation too?
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Post by John on Oct 21, 2007 7:36:15 GMT -7
The Route 66 is built much better, and it let's the sound of the guitar come through more. The individual characteristics of each guitar shine through.
Like zdogma said, the 66 takes pedals better because of the EF86.
Sorry it doesn't come in a combo form. But to me, that's not a deal breaker.
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Post by John on Oct 21, 2007 7:37:36 GMT -7
The Z-28 will sound different. It uses 6V6's and that's enough to sound different.
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Post by (8^D) on Oct 21, 2007 8:53:17 GMT -7
Bluesbreaker or Route 66. The Route 66 is like a hot-rodded version of the JTM-45 (Bluesbreaker) platform. They're both great amps.
Bluesbreaker has a little less low end/girth in the tone, not quite as thick. But, changing to a KT-66 tube should change a good part of that. They're also pretty heavy as a combo. Tend to come with the dual Greenbacks but you might consider a Greenback/Alnico Blue pairing as well...
Route 66 is extremely well made/reliable. Full/tight low end and thick mids - very full tone. Also a bit easier to move around as a head/cab...plus you can play around with speakers easier (change out the configuration for the gig - 112 for smaller room, 410/412 for big rooms, etc.).
Leave the Z-28 out of the equation...it's a stong Brown-face Fender tone. Nowhere near the Bluesbreaker/JTM-45 ballpark.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 21, 2007 12:59:52 GMT -7
Hm, all right, I'll leave the Z-28 out, then. Hm, I'll check them out. Keep on posting advises, very helpful forum
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Post by dixiechicken on Oct 21, 2007 14:39:35 GMT -7
" eivindaugust" - DC here! I have just recently - less than two weeks - gotten my Route66. With my Les Paul "raped and violated" Gold Top 69 ( no longer Gold - long story ) and the Seymour Duncan P90 stacks it was real easy to get that "Bluesbreaker vibe". ( I have the new 2x10" cab) Within minutes I was doing Hideaway the two first choruses. . I can't imagine you going wrong with the Route - it's a great rythm'n blues rockn' roll amp. Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 23, 2007 5:17:19 GMT -7
Yeah, looks like the Route 66 is more up my alley. Thansk for the help, looks like I'll get one of those soon
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Post by LeftyLang on Oct 24, 2007 12:23:01 GMT -7
I had both & now I have 2 R66's. The 66 will give you a tighter bottom end, a little more gain & will be a little darker sounding.(in a good way) IMO
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Post by kich on Oct 27, 2007 8:20:26 GMT -7
With my 57 Gold Top RI into the RT66/Zbest cab, I can nail the tones on the Beno album.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 27, 2007 12:30:34 GMT -7
Sounds great, will have to check it out soon! Use PRS, though
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bamabluesboy
Junior Member
Somewhere between the Magic City & the Rocket City.
Posts: 80
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Post by bamabluesboy on Oct 27, 2007 13:36:44 GMT -7
I have had two Marshall Bluesbreaker reissues. One was stock & the other was modded to be just iust the original. With Radiospares Trannys, Celestion Blues and all. They sound nothing like my Route 66 to me. Both of them were stiff and difficult to get good tone from. I kind of get tired of reading how everyone is trying to describe the Route 66 by comparing it to the Bluesbreaker. The Route 66 is unique, I have never played an amp that sounds anything like it. Just because it uses KT66's dosen't mean that it is comparable to the Bluesbreaker. Maybe my ears hear different than you guys or something.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 27, 2007 15:10:09 GMT -7
Interesting! But would you say I would be able to get a similar sound?
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Post by dixiechicken on Oct 28, 2007 4:23:13 GMT -7
The Route66 is a unique design. We allways categorize things to describe them in more or less understandable terms. If we're looking at the tubes the KT66 tubes were used in the JTM45 and those "Bluesbreaker combos. They were also used in the Quad hifi-amplifiers. But if you look at the pre-amp in the Route66 - the EF86 penthode was used in the early Vox AC-15 and Voz AC-30 pre top boost models. I'm almost sure that the tone-stack in the early Marshalls are basically a rip off from the Fender 5F6A Bassman late 50:ies tweed. So is the Route66 an Vox alike clone or a Marshal Bluesbreaker alike? Or is the Marshal Bluesbreaker combo - a Fender Bassman clone with KT66 tubes instead of 6L6 tubes? Or maybe the Route66 is a sort of hifi-amplifier - as far as guitar-amps go? Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 28, 2007 6:34:27 GMT -7
Ok, takkar och buckar! Will have to check 'em all out, then! I've also read that the JTM 45 is based on a Bassman. Thing is, I'll buy a Victoria before I buy a Z (am I swearing in church now?), and probably a 50212 or a 45410 (Bassman). Is the tone I'm after so similar that I can go straight over to thinking about buying a EL84 Z amp (pardon my english, we don't use it alot in Norway...)?
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Post by dixiechicken on Oct 28, 2007 7:05:16 GMT -7
" eivindaugust " - DC here! Maybe the easiest way for you to check out a Route66 would be to drive over to Sweden to my hometown. It really should be - "tackar och bockar" in Swedish. ;D And yes you're probably swearing in church - I never go to church though - so I can't hear ya? ? Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by billyguitar on Oct 28, 2007 9:51:44 GMT -7
A Fender late 1950s tweed circuit like a Bassman, Super, Bandmaster, Pro, Twin, will all do the bluesbreaker thing pretty well. Those are classic circuits for a reason, they sound great! The Route 66 would be a great amp too for that. The separate head makes it easier to try different speakers too. You really can't go wrong either way.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 28, 2007 14:29:16 GMT -7
All right. But I understand the Route has got more gain? Would it be cool/sensible to run a Victoria for clean/break up and a Route 66 for fat, roaring, searing leads, or would it be a waste of money?
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 28, 2007 14:30:01 GMT -7
Thanks for all the help and all the replies by the way, very helpful forum
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Post by dixiechicken on Oct 28, 2007 17:37:42 GMT -7
Certainly it's a waste of money. ;D But it would undoubtely be a lot of fun. On the serious side - tonight I play my Route this way:Weber Minimass at 12 o'clock. Volume dimed, Bass at 11 o'clock, Treble at 3 o'clock. Volume at the Telecaster dimed Tone control rolled back 1/4. Thats a rather typical British/American Rock n' Blues in your face sound. Rolling back the volume on the Tele 1/3 or so cleans the sound up nicely, it still has a bit of chrunch but sounds almost clean compared diming the volume on the Tele. The PU:s I have are the Seynour Duncan Vintage Stacks btw. Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by billyguitar on Oct 28, 2007 17:58:48 GMT -7
Fender tweed circuits can be very distorted when cranked. Listen to the Cream 2005 reunuion concerts. Clapton is using stock tweed Fender twins. A Route 66 is about the same neighborhood when cranked. The Route 66 has a couple of advantages; more sag and bloom and much thicker lower mids. If you're thinking of a/b-ing the 66 against a tweed and using the tweed for clean, you should be considering a high power Twin circuit. Otherwise I don't think you'd gain that much over just turning your guitar down. The 66 will clean up nice enough that using another 30 to 40 watt amp for clean would be redundant, IMO. A blackface Fender Twin Reverb will give you more clean than a tweed Twin. Leo Fender was trying to make his amps play cleaner so he cut the mids on the blackface amps so they wouldn't distort as much and also wouldn't be as hard on the speakers.
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Post by eivindaugust on Oct 29, 2007 9:06:19 GMT -7
Yeah, but I actually prefer the Tweed clean. It sounds so much warmer, jazzier and "real" than a hi-fi-ish blackface IMO. But then I should probably go for a Tweed Twin or Bassman by Victoria, and use the volume for clean/dirty, and start looking at a Stang Ray for AC30 type of tones? Or should I go for a Route 66 rather than a Victoria (the clean is very important here, I need it to be able to stay pretty clean when I want to, and then roll it up to distortion without blowing my ears of)?
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bamabluesboy
Junior Member
Somewhere between the Magic City & the Rocket City.
Posts: 80
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Post by bamabluesboy on Oct 29, 2007 9:49:42 GMT -7
The Route 66 does a great job of staying at even volumes while you roll back your guitars volume knob. It reacts differently to different pickups. If you use Humbuckers, the Route 66 clean tone may disappoint you. For super good cleans, I would go with a KT45 or better yet, a Delta 88 if you can find one.
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Post by billyguitar on Oct 29, 2007 11:32:45 GMT -7
I've tried using a 12AY7 in my 66 and that really cleaned it up but then you lose the distortion. A 5751 sounds enough like the 12AX7 that I don't think you gain much clean. The 66 will give you hairy cleans at a useable volume. It's a very loud 32 watts. A Delta 88 is set up with too much crossover distortion for me but I think I read where Myles said that could be biased out. I haven't played a KT45 enough to have an opinion but Myles said it's the loudest clean amp that Z makes. I have heard that it makes a great bass head too. The Stang Ray does do the Vox thing but not the top boost sound. More the normal channel sound. It's very nice for clean work. I know what you mean about tweed cleans. I prefer them myself. For me it's because the mids are more prominent than the blackface circuit. The tweeds also have a tube rectifier which compresses a bit compared to a Twin Reverb's stiff power. It's pretty hard to give you advice really on which amp to get. The 66 and Stang Ray are pretty much dedicated to what they do. The 66 for grit and the Ray for clean. The Maz amps are by far the most versatile. If I could only have one Z it would be a Maz for clean to semi clean, it will rock too if you want.
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Post by dixiechicken on Oct 29, 2007 12:06:09 GMT -7
DC here! I'm sure folks have said that before - but you/I can a very clean and loud volume out of a Route66 with the 2x10" cab that I have. The tone controls on the Route work very differently compared to my old Fender Blues DeVille that I sold to get the Route. Long as you stay from 12 o'clock and below on the tone controls - you do have quite a bit of clean headroom. When you dime the volume you will get a bit of crunch and compression - but roll the volume back then on the guitar it'll clean up nicely. With my Telecaster if I dime the volume put put treble at 8 o'clock and bass at 10 o'clock - the Route sounds clean to me. There's a bit of compression & sag but clean. ( well maybe not blackface clean ) I usually play pretty clean compared to most local guys around here - I don't feel I have a problem getting all the cleans I want. ( YMMV ) It's past 12 o'clock on the tone controls you really start to add gain & crunch to the Route. Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by eivindaugust on Nov 1, 2007 11:25:13 GMT -7
All right, thanks for the replies. Anyone (dixiechicken?) that can give a description of the Route 66 clean? I practice in a large gymnastic hall (if you call it that in english...) with a pretty loud drummer (jazz/fusion/blues quintet), and gig seldomly, at clubs. Would the clean headroom be enough for those situations? I'm after the warm tweed cleans of fifties jazz (think Wes Montgomery). And @ billyguitar: If/when I buy a Stang Ray, it would/will be for quite different things than the Route
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Post by dixiechicken on Nov 1, 2007 11:48:50 GMT -7
DC here!
Hard to say for me - I have never owned a late 50:ies Fender tweed.
Can only compare it my Fender Blues DeVille. To me the Route sounded/sounds more Marshall clean then Fender Blues DeVille clean.
A big part of this IS the 2x10" cab versus the open back combo 2x12" on the DeVille. Almost certainly the biggest part.
When I connect my Route to the hornloaded 1x12" with EVM-12L the sound is way different - more low mids. ( sounds a little hollow too I think )
I have only briefly tried the Route with the backplate removed from the 2x10" cab - then I thought some of the high mids were mellowed out. ( I'm none too sure of this - I really have to try the removed backplate much more )
Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by bobsyeruncle on Nov 1, 2007 13:54:05 GMT -7
Hi There,
I've used a route66 live for a few gigs, and the sound is very full, not quite as compressed as the Marshall, and a heck of a lot more versatile. I just like the cleans better, and the overdrive, whether driving the amp hard or pushing the front end with an overdrive pedal is very full sounding w/ a lot more tight low end.
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