jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Jun 9, 2006 10:29:29 GMT -7
Well I've had my 1x12" combo for a few days now. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with swapping tubes and speakers, trying it with different cabinets and guitars, etc. I really like the way the amp performs.. volume/breakup level is just about perfect, great dynamics, nice chime, great thump.. BUT:
There is a really heavy midrange emphasis that I just can't seem to get rid of. To my ears it has the effect of playing through a cardboard tube or an old phonograph, or having the tone knob rolled down on your guitar (although the highs are still present). It makes getting a transparent "clean" sound impossible. The amp colors my single coil guitars immensely, and humbuckers just turn to midrangey muck.
I don't remember the Mazerati I borrowed doing this, and I'm starting to think there may be something wrong with mine. The only thing I haven't changed so far are the power tubes and rectifier tube. I've tried 5751's in both positions, a nos 12at7 in each position... a few speakers - v30, Eminence Wizard, alnico Tone Tubby, Blue Pup.... and a couple external cabinets just to make sure it's not the combo box. I just can't get rid of this heavy mid sound and it's really turning me off. It seems like the tube and speaker changes have primarily effected the high end, but still haven't addressed the mids.
Is this just the way the amp is voiced?? Is there a way to get it to be more transparent? I haven't had this experience with other EL84 amps, or even the other Mazerati I played.
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Post by billyguitar on Jun 9, 2006 10:50:04 GMT -7
Mine didn't sound that way to me at all. What is your amp frame of reference? Blackface Fender, Vox, Marshall? Is it a new amp or possibley one that's been modded?
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jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Jun 9, 2006 11:25:58 GMT -7
I'm glad to hear yours didn't do that, it gives me hope. Mine is a "new" amp (chassis dated 2004).. just bought it from Fat Sound. I'm really hoping this is a power tube issue.... Speaking relative to any amp I've owned (Rt66, Maz18, Alessandro Italian, Seigmund MS, Marshall Jubillee, '64 Bassman, Acoustic Image Clarus..etc) this Mazerati "colors" the sound more than any of them. Think of what a tubescreamer does to the guitar tone (aside from the overdrive)... that's sort of what this sounds like all the time, though every speaker and cabinet I've put it through. Don't get me wrong - it sounds great this way with the "in between" strat positions, but I can't pull off anything resembling a transparent "clean" tone with the strat neck pickup or with humbuckers. And yes, I'm going for an "on the edge of breakup" type of clean sound, but a more transparent one. Not a Fender spanky clean, not a solid state clean, but a nice transparent sound with some hair on it. This is exactly what I heard coming out of the Mazerati I borrowed before I bought mine.
I'm going to keep experimenting because I really like the way this amp "feels" in performance and I'm hoping that it's just a matter of nailing down the right tube/speaker/cab combination. Anyone have any suggestions?
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Post by myles on Jun 9, 2006 11:31:00 GMT -7
Well I've had my 1x12" combo for a few days now. I've been doing a lot of experimenting with swapping tubes and speakers, trying it with different cabinets and guitars, etc. I really like the way the amp performs.. volume/breakup level is just about perfect, great dynamics, nice chime, great thump.. BUT: There is a really heavy midrange emphasis that I just can't seem to get rid of. To my ears it has the effect of playing through a cardboard tube or an old phonograph, or having the tone knob rolled down on your guitar (although the highs are still present). It makes getting a transparent "clean" sound impossible. The amp colors my single coil guitars immensely, and humbuckers just turn to midrangey muck. I don't remember the Mazerati I borrowed doing this, and I'm starting to think there may be something wrong with mine. The only thing I haven't changed so far are the power tubes and rectifier tube. I've tried 5751's in both positions, a nos 12at7 in each position... a few speakers - v30, Eminence Wizard, alnico Tone Tubby, Blue Pup.... and a couple external cabinets just to make sure it's not the combo box. I just can't get rid of this heavy mid sound and it's really turning me off. It seems like the tube and speaker changes have primarily effected the high end, but still haven't addressed the mids. Is this just the way the amp is voiced?? Is there a way to get it to be more transparent? I haven't had this experience with other EL84 amps, or even the other Mazerati I played. Never use a 12AT7 in V1 or any tone generation position .... not smooth at all. In V1 try this: kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?category=&product=14
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Post by jharris on Jun 9, 2006 11:51:01 GMT -7
I personally think that compared to fender amps that the Mazerati is midrangey. This is exactly what I like about it, I play it exclusively with single coil teles. To me a lot of the frequencey range of fender amps is useless in a live situation with bass and drums. Its the nasal woody quality I get from the Mazerati and low ouput alnico pickups set pretty low that I love so much. To me as a guitar player, that midrange is where I live.
I have to say if you ears are used to fenders and your hearing this in your house I could see it giving you that feeling, although once you take it out into a gig situation I dont think that you'll miss anything, although as I said I have no experience with humbuckers....so as always YMMV
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Jun 9, 2006 12:40:38 GMT -7
I personally think that compared to fender amps that the Mazerati is midrangey. This is exactly what I like about it, I play it exclusively with single coil teles. To me a lot of the frequencey range of fender amps is useless in a live situation with bass and drums. Its the nasal woody quality I get from the Mazerati and low ouput alnico pickups set pretty low that I love so much. To me as a guitar player, that midrange is where I live. I have to say if you ears are used to fenders and your hearing this in your house I could see it giving you that feeling, although once you take it out into a gig situation I dont think that you'll miss anything, although as I said I have no experience with humbuckers....so as always YMMV Right on the money. If you're coming over to the Z camp from Fenderland, you're not going to hear that scoopy, rich bassy, crystalline high kind of tone. I know exactly what you're experiencing right now - when I first got my Maz Jr (I'm using a Mazerati now) I in some ways didn't like what I heard. This was especially true with the Mazerati, as IMO the V30 has a very unpleasant honk to it (Weber Blue Dog in it now). But as jharris said, it's the midrange of the Z's that make it cut through the mix. And, as your ear gets used to the Z sound, you'll begin to hear really nice overtones and harmonic content that seems to be totally missing from the "Fender" tone. It took me a while to acquire the taste, but I don't think I'd ever want to go back to that Fendery sound now. But I can't emphasize enough how nicely the Z amps sound in a band/on-stage environment and how just the right frequencies seem to be present in just the right amounts. Then again, your ears aren't mine ;>)
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jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Jun 9, 2006 13:14:27 GMT -7
Thanks for the replies.
Myles (or anyone) - how big a role do the power tubes actually play in the overall voice of the amp? Are the preamp tubes more important? And the rectifier really just changes the response of the amp, right?
ignatius, like I mentioned, I've owned a bunch of amps including other Z's - and none of them really fall into in "Fender land" (aside from my 64 Bassman, obviously). What I'm hearing from this amp is not something I would associate with EL84s, Voxes, or other Z's.
Now granted, I've only played in a band scenario with this *particular* Mazerati once so far, but my impression that one time was "wow this thing is midrangey". I thought it was the V30 I had in there. So I came home and played around with other speakers.. ended up with the same sound, just with more or less high and low end.
I did not get this midrangey impression with the Mazerati I borrowed. On the other hand, it was a head with all nos tubes pushing a Weber silver/blue 2x12" cab, where mine is a 1x12" combo with the stock tubes. I'm waiting on a G12H30 to get here, hopefully that will push me in the right direction.
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Post by Buzz Fretwear (Ignatius) on Jun 9, 2006 14:00:08 GMT -7
Thanks for the replies. ignatius, like I mentioned, I've owned a bunch of amps including other Z's - and none of them really fall into in "Fender land" (aside from my 64 Bassman, obviously). What I'm hearing from this amp is not something I would associate with EL84s, Voxes, or other Z's. Sorry jbro, I didn't read that list of amps in your original post. I have the 1x12 combo too and I wouldn't characterize it as overly midrangey, or unpleasantly so. There's gotta be something wrong somewhere. I use mine most of the time with a Tele, or sometimes with a Les Paul that has Harmonic Designs Z90's in it (big single coils), and the cleans on mine are very rich and sound gorgeous. Maybe the Doc could advise you.
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Post by billyguitar on Jun 9, 2006 14:57:21 GMT -7
The G12H30 is a more neutral speaker than a Vintage 30. It might help. But, My Maz 38 came with the G12H30 and I replaced it with an alnico Tone Tubby. The two speakers don't sound that different in some way. The TT just gives you more of everything without the cone cry.
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jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Jun 10, 2006 16:41:29 GMT -7
Well for what it's worth I've concluded that A) I don't really notice the midrange thing significantly until I start to crank the amp pretty good, and B) even when cranked, a mic placed right in front of the speaker doesn't really pick it up as drastically as I'm hearing it in the room. I'm thinking it may have a lot to do with the room I'm listening to it in (all wood walls/ceiling). I have a few gigs this week so I'll get a chance to really check this thing out in the right environment. In the mean time I'm loving the feel and harmonics of this amp, definately one of the best I've owned!
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Post by jharris on Jun 13, 2006 11:22:48 GMT -7
and you will come to love that midrange. That to me is the genious of the tone knob, if you were playing a maz series amp, you would have dialed away a lot of that great punchy midrange with all those knobs because thats what your ears would be used to, its almost like the lack of knobs enforce that great tone that I love from my Mazerati. I know its kind of nutty and overzealous but, its almost like the Dr sets that voice (with some flexibility from the tone knob) and I almost submit to it, and that tone knob is like a varible sweet spot.
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Post by kidmagic on Jun 13, 2006 12:58:51 GMT -7
Here's a crazy idea, and may really help you. Just try it if you can. If you have a 2x12 sealed back cab, take one of the speakers out. Completely out, so you have essentially a single 12" speaker, and one gapping hole in the front (if you have a 4x12, take two speakers out). This is called a "de-tuned" cabinet (see www.londonpower.com/speakers.htm for more information). I built myself a 2x12 (size of a 4x12, one v30, one g12h), and it kills with my Mazerati... Almost adds this very very slight element of reverb, and a very broad sound spectrum (not as mid-rangy, definitely more chimy but with a nice underlying low base feel).
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Post by kidmagic on Jun 13, 2006 13:02:10 GMT -7
By the way, there is not a lot of information out there on Detuned cabs. I've done internet searchs and have come accross message board threads of people laughing them off as some gimmick.. I can guarantee these guys have never heard one, much less through a Z. All I can say is, if you play anything other than death metal, you owe it to yourself to check it out. And if you have a sealed back cab, it's easier than changing drivers.
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jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Jun 13, 2006 17:45:37 GMT -7
Actually I've tried this with a few different drivers in my Ear Candy 2x12" (sealed back/front ported). I'm not sure I like it better than with 2 speakers in it.. sounds kind of hollow and woofy to me. I might experiment with it some more in a band scenario, because we all know our ears play tricks on us at home. EDIT: And I'm certainly not playing death metal. Jazz, fusion, blues, R&B, drum&bass, baritone fingerstyle... no death metal. ;D
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Here's an update on the original thread topic, too:
I just installed a G12H30, and it's a little soon to say for sure.. but I think all of my midrange misery may have just been cured. Everything about the amp sounds better now, lows are fuller, highs are clearer, and the mids are no longer overemphasized. Out of any of the speakers I've tried (Vintage 30, Eminence Wizard, Tone Tubby Alnico, Bag End E-12) - this is deinately the keeper for the Mazerati IMO.
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