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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 2:22:36 GMT -7
Put new tubes in my Jr. for the first time... ;D Things went well.I started playing with various new tubes that I have, paying the most attention to V1. I think it's V1 that is the most important tube, that plays a major role in your tone, and note clarity. Let's start out with a picture of the stock tubes in my NR Jr.That would be...V1 - JJ ECC83-S (Preamp tube) V2 - JJ ECC83-S (Preamp tube) V3 - Sovtek 12AX7-LPS (Phase Inverter tube) V4 - JJ EL84 (Power tube) V5 - JJ EL84 (Power tube) V6 - Sovtek 5AR4 (Rectifier tube) I began by installing the tubes for my Power section first:I already knew I wanted to test out some 7189 Power Tubes, to ensure they worked for me, and install my GE Rectifier tube. Neither tube was really up for debate, they both were just going to get installed. After being educated to the fact that the 5751 was originally designed to be used as a phase inverter, (meaning the two sides of the tube were intended to be closely matched)I decided to try one out. Here are the tubes I used in my Power Section.V3 - NOS JAN GE 5751 (1980's). (Balanced)V4 & V5 - NOS Set of matched RCA 7189's. V6 - NOS GE 5AR4/GZ34. On my Preamp...For V2, I tried a few, but I am mostly a clean fan, and have seen numerous reports of good results running a 5751 in that position. Especially if you like a bit more Clean Headroom. I opted for a NOS RCA 5751 Blackplate. (Balanced) Sounds good to me, and I believe that a NR Jr. would still have plenty of gain to give me all the hair I want. Even when running a 5751 in V2. For V1, I did try quite a few, but my favorite came out to be my NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7. (Relabeled) They sound just as numerous people have posted... Warm and wonderful...I was wondering if with me running BurstBucker Pro pickups, and having a Les Paul, that a Mullard might get too dark. Not the case at all. I think the Jr. is a wee on the bright side by nature. (I could be wrong.) I think the Mullard complements the Jr. well. This is my new Preamp SectionV1 - NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7. (Relabeled) V2 - NOS RCA 5751 Blackplate. (Balanced) Now One Big Happy Family!V1 - NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7. (Relabeled) V2 - NOS RCA 5751 Blackplate. (Balanced) V3 - NOS JAN GE 5751 (1980's). (Balanced) V4 & V5 - NOS Set of matched RCA 7189's. V6 - NOS GE 5AR4/GZ34.They all installed just fine. I did clean all the pins with DeoxIT first, and it did make a difference in their appearance. Upgrade for sure.Put her back together, and hit it with some power:The result? No fire or smoke of any kind... All tubes lighting up fine... Eased er out of stand-by, and played as loud as an Ohio man could, with his Wife sleeping 2 floors up. It sounds wonderful... I am so happy with my first install experience. Mission accomplished.Further testing will no doubt have to take place at a more decent hour.
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Post by chetz on Oct 31, 2010 4:19:21 GMT -7
That is so Awesome! When there is no smoke or POPs I am a happy camper....... ;D
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 4:21:15 GMT -7
Always!!
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Post by Corey on Oct 31, 2010 4:37:17 GMT -7
..whew, great news that the 7189s are acceptable.. thanks for the report bud..
+1k for you! ;D
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 4:40:35 GMT -7
TY!! Needless to say, I am even more glad than you that the 7189's are a success. Hurting my Jr. in any way would rock my world. (In a bad way!)
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Post by Dannydny on Oct 31, 2010 5:43:18 GMT -7
Interesting post... How much was your total investment and did you purchase from the same vendor? Just curious.
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Post by Andy 67 on Oct 31, 2010 5:54:03 GMT -7
Hey, BBPro, did you notice any significant changes in tone/sound in the power tubes vs. the previous EL84s you had in? I'm just being curious... Tons of tone!!!
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 6:14:11 GMT -7
I still will be evaluating today after Church. Expect an update on that Andy. Interesting post... How much was your total investment and did you purchase from the same vendor? Just curious. V1 - NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7. (Relabeled) $150.00 V2 - NOS RCA 5751 Blackplate. (Balanced) $65.00 V3 - NOS JAN GE 5751 (1980's). (Balanced) $22.00 V4 & V5 - NOS Set of matched RCA 7189's. $120.00 V6 - NOS GE 5AR4/GZ34. $95.00 All tubes were bought from Mike at KCA NOS Tubes. Total Cost for this load = $452.00
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Post by Andy 67 on Oct 31, 2010 6:51:52 GMT -7
I still will be evaluating today after Church. Expect an update on that Andy. Interesting post... How much was your total investment and did you purchase from the same vendor? Just curious. V1 - NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7. (Relabeled) $150.00 V2 - NOS RCA 5751 Blackplate. (Balanced) $65.00 V3 - NOS JAN GE 5751 (1980's). (Balanced) $22.00 V4 & V5 - NOS Set of matched RCA 7189's. $120.00 V6 - NOS GE 5AR4/GZ34. $95.00 All tubes were bought from Mike at KCA NOS Tubes. Total Cost for this load = $452.00 I will... ;D ;D ;D Tons of tone!!
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 7:08:52 GMT -7
You know $452.00 may sound a bit high, but when you consider... Both V1 and V2 stand a good chance of lasting me for the rest of my life... V6'es life is probably almost as long... My PI tube - Cheapest tube I have in there, and bought on sale. Probably has a year or two anyway... My 2 pricey NOS Power tubes - Hard to say, but I do have them operating way below their max voltage rating. I would say at least a year, probably more... Makes me feel better anyway...
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 14:27:10 GMT -7
Well, I put over an hour or more on the amp... I have had both the Master and Volume controls, up to their Max positions at the same time... I wanted to test the amp out running full tilt, with the 7189's installed. Still, working wonderfully. I don't notice a major change in overall tone using the 7189's -vs- an EL84. Still, my amp does sound different to me... I can't say for sure if it's the NOS Preamp tubes, or the 7189 Power Tubes, or even my new Rectifier!! But my mind keeps returning to the phrase ' Smooth 'n' Creamy' to describe the amps sound. I can say that my amp feels better, sounds outstanding, and 7189 Power Tube functionality in the Jr. has been confirmed.
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Post by Dannydny on Oct 31, 2010 14:40:50 GMT -7
I have a NOS rectifier and power tubes that I purchased from Mike at KCA. I think the rectifier was the biggest difference in tone. The smooth and creamy that you mentioned. I don't think I would spend the extra cash again for the NOS EL-84's because of there short life span. I read a lot of post on swapping out V1. Mostly for cleaner head room?
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 14:43:41 GMT -7
Yes, and some might say that high-end NOS tubes have better note clarity, or definition. I also think each preamp tube also has it's own special way of distorting. NOS EL84's can go quicker than ya like for sure. I have to believe that a NOS 7189 would last longer than an NOS EL84, but it's hard to say... I hope so anyway!
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Post by Corey on Oct 31, 2010 18:20:10 GMT -7
BBPro, this has been a large contribution to our community. I am so glad to hear that the 7189s are drop-in replacements!
I'm glad to see those 5751s in action too.. my favorite tube I guess.. I have them at both V1 and V2 in my Ghia.
Thanks again. ;D
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 31, 2010 18:27:43 GMT -7
Fascinating. But here's the deal. You want to know what each tube contributes to the tone - you have to change them out one by one. If I were you, I'd go back to the original set, then pop in the power tubes and play it a while to form an opinion. Then pop in the PI and play a while to form an opinion. Then pop in V2 and play a while to form an opinion. Then pop in V1 and play a while to form and opinion. Then pop in the Rectifier and play a whle to form an opinion.
Yeah that's a load of work. But when you change everything at once you have no idea which thing caused the majority of the change you are hearing. It could be that everything you're hearing was caused by a $12 V1 tube change, yet you spent over $400. Or it could be that each change contributed some percentage of what you're hearing. You just don't know, is all.
Change one thing at a time for the best idea of what's going on.
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 18:33:44 GMT -7
Yes, I was relying on the gang here allot. I have seen that the NOS GE Rectifier is an upgrade so many times, I figured I just wanted to put it in. The Power Tubes, were an experiment, and don't see myself buying too many sets of NOS Power Tubes. I may go back and start all over again to get a better feel for what each tube is doing to my tone, the problem is, I now like it better as is!!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 31, 2010 18:38:16 GMT -7
Yes, I was relying on the gang here allot. I have seen that the NOS GE Rectifier is an upgrade so many times, I figured I just wanted to put it in. The Power Tubes, were an experiment, and don't see myself buying too many sets of NOS Power Tubes. I may go back and start all over again to get a better feel for what each tube is doing to my tone, the problem is, I now like it better as is!! Honestly, I'm very interested in those power tubes, just because it is getting harder to find good reliable power tubes. Those sound like more than good and reliable.
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 18:45:21 GMT -7
That's what I think too... They may be around a while running 100 volts below their rated operating voltage.
Posted on another board about the 7189's being used in a Jr.: Cathbard: A 7189 will be loafing. It will last the same way that a big block V8 will last compared to a turbocharged Nissan producing the same power. 2 years later the big block is just worn in but the high tech turbo is half worn out. You should get a lot longer life out of them in that amp.
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Post by Corey on Oct 31, 2010 19:37:14 GMT -7
^^^ I'm convinced! ;D
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Post by Scott on Oct 31, 2010 21:52:34 GMT -7
Engine analogies always rule... Something I can get my mind wrapped around! Kids, do not smoke!!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 31, 2010 22:57:47 GMT -7
Cool!
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 11:37:29 GMT -7
OK, Steve... You might like this observation. I think when using the 7189's as your power tubes, the amp likes to be run louder to get that Tube 'Open' sound. If I run at too low of a volume, I hate to use the work muffled, but not near as nice as when being run louder. It's quite an audible change to me, that when my Master now needs to be set past Noon, to have the amp really open up. I don't remember the JJ doing that. They seamed more bright, most of the way up... I would say things don't really get good until my Master Control is set to 1:00 or more... and my Volume Control at 12:00 or more. Then they sound tremendous. My Cut Control now needs to be at 3:00, and I used to keep it about 9:00. My new stance is that: A 7189 doesn't shine, until you juice it pretty darn good when installed in an amp designed for EL84 tubes.It likes the voltage...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 1, 2010 11:41:54 GMT -7
OK, Steve... You might like this observation. I think when using the 7189's as your power tubes, the amp likes to be run louder to get that Tube 'Open' sound. If I run at too low of a volume, I hate to use the work muffled, but not near as nice as when being run louder. It's quite an audible change to me, that when my Master now needs to be set past Noon, to have the amp really open up. I don't remember the JJ doing that. They seamed more bright, most of the way up... I would say things don't really get good until my Master Control is set to 1:00 or more... and my Volume Control at 12:00 or more. Then they sound tremendous. My Cut Control now needs to be at 3:00, and I used to keep it about 9:00. My new stance is that: A 7189 doesn't shine, until you juice it pretty darn good when installed in an amp designed for EL84 tubes.Was that with the 5751 in the PI? You know those have lower gain than a 12AX7, don't you? They don't push the power tubes quite as hard then. Same for using them in the front end of the amp - you'll have to turn the volumes up to get to the same place as before. Thus, you may be drawing a conclusion about the power tubes that is actually a conclusion about the PI or preamp. This is what I was warning about above - changing two things or more will always cause you to second think any potential conclusions - you'll get fooled every time. I suggest you try the 12AX7 in the PI and see if you don't agree.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 11:46:05 GMT -7
Yes... that is with a 5751 in V2 and V3... You probably are correct. I think I may want to change at least one of them back over to a 12AX7. More testing ahead.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 11:54:57 GMT -7
I don't need to put my preamp tube holders back on, while I am just testing different tubes, correct?
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Post by BritInvasion on Nov 1, 2010 12:26:05 GMT -7
I don't need to put my preamp tube holders back on, while I am just testing different tubes, correct? Correct. Some folks that run Maz18 heads (not combos) leave them off altogether.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 14:29:41 GMT -7
Thanks.
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 15:50:20 GMT -7
Steve, you were right again...
I am starting the process now, and took your advice and went after the PI first.
I have a Balanced JJ ECC803 S (Gold Pin) that I tried as my new inverter.
Volume is back to normal, Cut Control is much closer to the way I remember it acting, and that 'Open sound' is at darn near at any volume.
New rule for me: I like the gain of an actual 12AX7 in the PI position. Running a tube with too low of a gain here, can change how your Cut Control will need to be set, and the level of volume required to let the amp's sound open up, probably first requiring both Volume and Master settings to be past 12:00. A 5751 PI does not have enough gain for me, and caused me to run my Cut Control from a normal 9:00 position, to a new 3:00 position to sound close to the same.
Now off to try a Balanced 12AX7 NOS RCA PI. ;D
And just for the record, the JJ ECC803 S (Gold Pin) sounds fine!
(This knowledge is making me enjoy my new Power tubes even more.)
** Update ** The RCA NOS Balanced PI is a wee bit brighter than the JJ ECC803 S (Gold Pin). I like the Jr's sound even better with the RCA 12AX7A, and it is officially my new PI tube.
On to play with V2 again...
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 1, 2010 16:49:19 GMT -7
That's very cool, I'm glad you did the experiment because I'm certain you learned several things in the process. That's what it's all about if you ask me!
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Post by Scott on Nov 1, 2010 16:51:05 GMT -7
Me too!! Not sure if I will hear a change with V2, but I am going for a 12AX7...
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